Okay, so not to beat a dead horse, but part of the reason why WHH is so endlessly debatable is that it is a theory you can fit any given story scenario into whatever size or shaped box you want. And this is especially true in the frame of telling a story. I, for the most part am going to try to avoid that here as I state my case. Okay, with that out of the way....
We all know the basic premise of WHH. On any given timeline of events, particular events on that timeline are a constant up to and including people traveling back in time on the timeline, right? Okay, now what I'm going to illustrate is how with WHH you can't have your cake and eat it too.
THE BIKE AND THE POTHOLE 1
Let's say you get a brand new mountain bike for your birthday, you put it together, strap your helmet on and take off down the street. About 10 blocks from your house you hit a nasty pothole and flip off the bike, crash, and break your arm. You go to the doctor, get a cast on your arm, etc. Now you are at home in pain and angry at the unfortunate event but you remember that your next door neighbor, Doc Brown, has a time machine built into a car. You ask him if you could borrow it so that you can go back in time and prevent yourself from falling off the bike. Doc says to go for it. So you do.
Now you are back to the day you hit the pothole, and to one hour before you knew you got the bike. So you get some wet cement and go to the pothole. You pour it in, it dries (probably not that fast but roll with me here) and the hole is fixed. Now your other self in the past comes riding down the block and rides along without incident. All is well, right?
WRONG. If WHH, then your original self would have always rode without incident, because your future self always came back to fix the hole. But wait a minute, if you never experience the pothole then why would there be a need for your future self to travel back in time to fix the hole in the first place?
Do you see the paradox here?
The only way to solve this problem is to create a NEW TIMELINE at the moment you came back and fixed the hole. As Doc Brown famously said in BTTF2 - "The timeline skews into a tangent!".
Okay, come a little further with me. Now, let's draw an analogy to the Incident as being the pothole on the LOST timeline that caused the broken arm/plane to crash. We all know the basic chain of events that supposedly stemmed from the incident that lead to the crash. So, let's go back to the bike and the pot hole analogy but with a slight twist.
THE BIKE AND THE POTHOLE 2
You get the bike for your birthday, put on helmet, go riding, hit a pothole, crash, break your arm, go to the doctor, get a cast, go back in time to before you got the bike, pave the hole, leave the scene. BUT, when you left, you didn't realize that you actually poured the WRONG CEMENT that evaporated before it could dry. So your self in the past comes riding down the block and guess what... hit's the pothole, breaks arm, gets a cast, goes back in time, gets THE WRONG CEMENT again, pours it, leaves, etc. Now you are in an endless loop of events.
Now the difference here is that this DOES FIT the model of WHH much better compared to the first because in this scenario nothing is actually changed with time travel because you had the wrong information about the type of cement to fix the hole.
So lets go back to the Incident. Daniel tells Jack that they can change the future by dropping an h bomb down the drill shaft of the future swan site. Jack convinces everyone that this is the way to go. Now keep in mind we are sticking with WHH. Jack drops the bomb, Juliet bangs it, white flash! We don't know what happened immediately after, whether or not it did blow up and destroyed the energy, or fused with the energy and made it worse or stabalized it, but if WHH then we know that the result is that they had to build the swan and create the 108 min button to keep the energy surpressed. Desmond eventually turns the fail safe, more energy is released and flight 815 crashes. And then you have all the events play out like we've seen throughout the seasons and Jack ends right back at the shaft holding the bomb.
Now compare that to the pothole again. You pour the cement in the hole because you believe it will fill it up and you will never crash and break your arm. Daniel and Jack and everyone else believed that dropping the bomb was going to change everything. But WHH right? Basically, they were ignorant just like you were in thinking you had the right kind of cement that would fix the hole. You pour it, and leave, and it evaporates before your past self comes riding down the block.
So, in this scenario of WHH, Jack and company coming back to 77 and doing this always happened, but it COULD NEVER FIX ANYTHING IN THE FUTURE. Why? Because in order to stick with WHH, then if they fixed the future, they would never have had to come back to drop the bomb in the shaft. Just like in the first scenario of the bike rider, you would never have hit the pot hole because your future self would have came back to fix it.
In sticking to WHH, Jack and the losties were ALWAYS on the timeline in 77 and in 2004. But they could only be there if they never change anything in the past to prevent them from crashing in the first place. If you don't agree with that, then there's no way WHH. Now, for your convenience, if they do change the future, now we are talking about an alternate timeline. In this is precisely what everyone is hoping for.
SEE YOU IN LA?
Okay, so what I'm theorizing is that I've seen only two pieces of evidence in 2007 (the present) that shows us the evidence of what happened after the bomb was dropped and did or didn't go off. One, is the Namaste picture which shows our losties fresh off the boat in dharmaville. And the other is (yes I believe it is her) the old Juliet standing aimlessly in the background of Ben and Sun when they walk up on the beach behind Locke in Follow the Leader. I believe there are other clues in these present day episodes, but I have yet to find them.
Okay, so look again. The namaste picture is proof that the losties were in 77 and had an effect on the same timeline that Jacob gets killed by Ben. Now what we don't know is where the hell are they now? Dead like Richard said? Maybe. In between worlds like Christian? Maybe. But it doesn't matter for what I'm about to illustrate.
What we do know, is that from the time of the incident, there existed a younger version of each character who came back. A young Jack, kate, Hurley (who may not have been born yet), Jin, Sayid, etc. Sticking to WHH, they grow up, go through the same Daddy issues and drama, end up on flight 815, crash on the island in 04, leave, come back in 07, but end right back in 77. Again, a loop. But the curve in the loop is/should be in 07 when they are on Ojira and get flashed off the plane.
Okay, so back to the Namaste picture. We know it is there. Sticking to WHH, then that picture ALWAYS HAD TO HAVE BEEN THERE ON THE ISLAND SOMEWHERE during all the events of the past seasons. Now I haven't gone back and watched episodes with that in mind, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere around season 4, there has to be SOMETHING that eludes to this. If the writers are committed then there has to be something very subtle to suggest that someone on the island (besides Jacob) knows of this picture. But to go against my own thinking why would it just be hanging on the wall in the Dharma sign in center all that time. Wouldn't one of the others have recognized them? Well, from the looks of the place no one had been in there since the Dharma days. Remember when they went in Ben's old dharma house and in Alex's room, everything was relatively neat and kept up for at least the past 3 years. It seems to me that since the dharma sign in building wasn't a living quarters they proba! bly just left it alone.
But I think a better answer about the picture could come from Daniel. Because remember Daniel had the picture when he got off the boat and most likely had the picture on him when he was shot by Ellie, and maybe she had it all along.
Okay, so based on everything I just explained we know that the Losties did not CAUSE THE INCIDENT, but they did not PREVENT IT from happening. Just like in the second bike analogy, you didn't cause the pot hole but you didn't fix it either although you went back in time with that intention. The fact that you were ignorant in thinking you had the right cement causes you to be in an endless loop of WHH.
So, does WHH rule after all? Not so fast. There's one thing to consider here. And that is Desmond, Daniel, and concept and ramifications of cognitive time travel.
Okay, so if WHH, and the Losties do not fix the incident then that means that they had the WRONG INFORMATION. Was Daniel wrong? Did the bomb not work? Did the bomb work and still nothing happened? No way to tell at this point. But as I said the only two clues is Richard's dialogue and Juliet's old double in 07.
Information is the key.
When you consider all of the examples of cognitive time travel we've seen on the show, and how it effectively altered the future, I think that this is going to be the key to ultimately make the changes everyone desires. Desmond, and Daniel, being the ones that know more about it through first hand experience and experimentation, are going to prove to be key.
So, quickly, what's the difference in the two time travel methods? Okay, one more bike and pot hole analogy.
THE BIKE AND THE POTHOLE 3
You ride the bike, hit the hole, break your arm, get a cast. But this time instead of having a neighbor named doc Brown, you have a neighbor named Doc Blue (please roll with me here), and Doc Blue wants you to come over and be the rat in his experiment. He says that he's discovered a way to send your mind back into time. He says he can send you back to before you hit the pot hole. You say great. He sits you down in a chair and puts a contraption over your head. He flips a switch and a purple light blasts your skull. You get dizzy and pass out. You wake up and you are looking at your brand new bike only days before. At first it feels like a vision of the future, but you remember everything you are about to do AND you remember hitting the pothole, breaking your arm, sitting in Doc Blue's chair, and blacking out. You realize why you are here.
To make a different CHOICE.
Now think about that word for a moment, choice, and compare it to the first example where you PHYSICALLY travel back in time with a bucket of cement. When you came back in time in the flesh, there are TWO of you occupying the same space. When you mind travel there is still just you in that time and space. But when you mind travel, you have FOREKNOWLEDGE of the future because you've experienced it. But when you physically travel, your past self is still ignorant of the negative future event you from the future are trying to prevent. So now the you from the future that experienced the pothole, have to now create ANOTHER EVENT that will change the outcome. But when you mind travel, all you do is make a different choice.
So, back one last time. You mind traveled back, you ride the bike, but you decide to go down a DIFFERENT STREET. Now, you could still hit another pothole and break the same arm, or leg, or get hit by a car and get taken in a home where you realize the young mother of the house is actually your mom and she's in love with you and.... sorry, wrong analogy.
Okay, really. In all probability, you go down a different street, you don't hit the pot hole on the original street because it is still there, but you avoid it all together. Now, some people are going to say; "fate/the universe is still going to break your arm because that's what's destined to happen." I say BS. I happen to not believe in a universe that is going to conspire all of it's resources to break your arm because that's what happened before. I know we are talking hypotheticals in the context of a fictional story, but the whole 'fate will find a way' argument to me is pointless when you are talking about time travel. I'm happy to debate that in another posting.
So, ultimately, you don't break your arm by way of a different choice you made based on foreknowledge of the future. You get dizzy and wake up in Doc Blue's chair. But now you have memories of BOTH hitting the pothole and breaking your arm, and also avoiding it all together. Now the real question is; does that cast you had from the first ride just disappear because you just went back and avoided the hole? Did you create a NEW TIMELINE when you mind traveled back? Well, according to what we've seen on LOST the answer is no to both questions.
I think what it boils down to is that having INFORMATION about the future in the time travel scenario is much better than physically traveling back. Because when you physically travel back you create an instant paradox of being in the same space with your past self, right? And not to get too far off the subject but in a quantum physics model of teleportation between two vast distances, it's actually the information about the physical properties of an object that is sent to the receiving end and not the actual thing itself. Just like a fax machine. I know time travel and teleportation are two different things, but in the quantum realm they're not too far apart.
So, in the end; my theory/predictions are that Desmond is going to end up going back to the island, but not physically, but mentally. He's going to go back and make different choices that will be enough to effect some of the significant events we've seen. The last time we see Des he's in a hospital. I think they are going to wheel him in for an MRI and when they turn it on it's going to trigger the electromagnetic scrambling in his brain and ZZZWHOOOSHHH!!! He's back in the hatch. And maybe this time he doesn't turn the key?
And Daniel, I believe we haven't seen the last of him. I believe we're going to see that Daniel was perfecting his mind time travel machine on Ann Arbor and that he was doing some mind jumping around of his own before he came back in 77 for the incident. And again, this based on my examples above, and although I acknowledge that my mind travel vs phys travel may not be 100% fleshed out, but I know strongly that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. And I believe it's why the show has put so much emphasis on that with those two characters.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
My next post is a theory on why the Losties had to come back to the island. I promise it's much shorter and has no potholes.
We all know the basic premise of WHH. On any given timeline of events, particular events on that timeline are a constant up to and including people traveling back in time on the timeline, right? Okay, now what I'm going to illustrate is how with WHH you can't have your cake and eat it too.
THE BIKE AND THE POTHOLE 1
Let's say you get a brand new mountain bike for your birthday, you put it together, strap your helmet on and take off down the street. About 10 blocks from your house you hit a nasty pothole and flip off the bike, crash, and break your arm. You go to the doctor, get a cast on your arm, etc. Now you are at home in pain and angry at the unfortunate event but you remember that your next door neighbor, Doc Brown, has a time machine built into a car. You ask him if you could borrow it so that you can go back in time and prevent yourself from falling off the bike. Doc says to go for it. So you do.
Now you are back to the day you hit the pothole, and to one hour before you knew you got the bike. So you get some wet cement and go to the pothole. You pour it in, it dries (probably not that fast but roll with me here) and the hole is fixed. Now your other self in the past comes riding down the block and rides along without incident. All is well, right?
WRONG. If WHH, then your original self would have always rode without incident, because your future self always came back to fix the hole. But wait a minute, if you never experience the pothole then why would there be a need for your future self to travel back in time to fix the hole in the first place?
Do you see the paradox here?
The only way to solve this problem is to create a NEW TIMELINE at the moment you came back and fixed the hole. As Doc Brown famously said in BTTF2 - "The timeline skews into a tangent!".
Okay, come a little further with me. Now, let's draw an analogy to the Incident as being the pothole on the LOST timeline that caused the broken arm/plane to crash. We all know the basic chain of events that supposedly stemmed from the incident that lead to the crash. So, let's go back to the bike and the pot hole analogy but with a slight twist.
THE BIKE AND THE POTHOLE 2
You get the bike for your birthday, put on helmet, go riding, hit a pothole, crash, break your arm, go to the doctor, get a cast, go back in time to before you got the bike, pave the hole, leave the scene. BUT, when you left, you didn't realize that you actually poured the WRONG CEMENT that evaporated before it could dry. So your self in the past comes riding down the block and guess what... hit's the pothole, breaks arm, gets a cast, goes back in time, gets THE WRONG CEMENT again, pours it, leaves, etc. Now you are in an endless loop of events.
Now the difference here is that this DOES FIT the model of WHH much better compared to the first because in this scenario nothing is actually changed with time travel because you had the wrong information about the type of cement to fix the hole.
So lets go back to the Incident. Daniel tells Jack that they can change the future by dropping an h bomb down the drill shaft of the future swan site. Jack convinces everyone that this is the way to go. Now keep in mind we are sticking with WHH. Jack drops the bomb, Juliet bangs it, white flash! We don't know what happened immediately after, whether or not it did blow up and destroyed the energy, or fused with the energy and made it worse or stabalized it, but if WHH then we know that the result is that they had to build the swan and create the 108 min button to keep the energy surpressed. Desmond eventually turns the fail safe, more energy is released and flight 815 crashes. And then you have all the events play out like we've seen throughout the seasons and Jack ends right back at the shaft holding the bomb.
Now compare that to the pothole again. You pour the cement in the hole because you believe it will fill it up and you will never crash and break your arm. Daniel and Jack and everyone else believed that dropping the bomb was going to change everything. But WHH right? Basically, they were ignorant just like you were in thinking you had the right kind of cement that would fix the hole. You pour it, and leave, and it evaporates before your past self comes riding down the block.
So, in this scenario of WHH, Jack and company coming back to 77 and doing this always happened, but it COULD NEVER FIX ANYTHING IN THE FUTURE. Why? Because in order to stick with WHH, then if they fixed the future, they would never have had to come back to drop the bomb in the shaft. Just like in the first scenario of the bike rider, you would never have hit the pot hole because your future self would have came back to fix it.
In sticking to WHH, Jack and the losties were ALWAYS on the timeline in 77 and in 2004. But they could only be there if they never change anything in the past to prevent them from crashing in the first place. If you don't agree with that, then there's no way WHH. Now, for your convenience, if they do change the future, now we are talking about an alternate timeline. In this is precisely what everyone is hoping for.
SEE YOU IN LA?
Okay, so what I'm theorizing is that I've seen only two pieces of evidence in 2007 (the present) that shows us the evidence of what happened after the bomb was dropped and did or didn't go off. One, is the Namaste picture which shows our losties fresh off the boat in dharmaville. And the other is (yes I believe it is her) the old Juliet standing aimlessly in the background of Ben and Sun when they walk up on the beach behind Locke in Follow the Leader. I believe there are other clues in these present day episodes, but I have yet to find them.
Okay, so look again. The namaste picture is proof that the losties were in 77 and had an effect on the same timeline that Jacob gets killed by Ben. Now what we don't know is where the hell are they now? Dead like Richard said? Maybe. In between worlds like Christian? Maybe. But it doesn't matter for what I'm about to illustrate.
What we do know, is that from the time of the incident, there existed a younger version of each character who came back. A young Jack, kate, Hurley (who may not have been born yet), Jin, Sayid, etc. Sticking to WHH, they grow up, go through the same Daddy issues and drama, end up on flight 815, crash on the island in 04, leave, come back in 07, but end right back in 77. Again, a loop. But the curve in the loop is/should be in 07 when they are on Ojira and get flashed off the plane.
Okay, so back to the Namaste picture. We know it is there. Sticking to WHH, then that picture ALWAYS HAD TO HAVE BEEN THERE ON THE ISLAND SOMEWHERE during all the events of the past seasons. Now I haven't gone back and watched episodes with that in mind, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere around season 4, there has to be SOMETHING that eludes to this. If the writers are committed then there has to be something very subtle to suggest that someone on the island (besides Jacob) knows of this picture. But to go against my own thinking why would it just be hanging on the wall in the Dharma sign in center all that time. Wouldn't one of the others have recognized them? Well, from the looks of the place no one had been in there since the Dharma days. Remember when they went in Ben's old dharma house and in Alex's room, everything was relatively neat and kept up for at least the past 3 years. It seems to me that since the dharma sign in building wasn't a living quarters they proba! bly just left it alone.
But I think a better answer about the picture could come from Daniel. Because remember Daniel had the picture when he got off the boat and most likely had the picture on him when he was shot by Ellie, and maybe she had it all along.
Okay, so based on everything I just explained we know that the Losties did not CAUSE THE INCIDENT, but they did not PREVENT IT from happening. Just like in the second bike analogy, you didn't cause the pot hole but you didn't fix it either although you went back in time with that intention. The fact that you were ignorant in thinking you had the right cement causes you to be in an endless loop of WHH.
So, does WHH rule after all? Not so fast. There's one thing to consider here. And that is Desmond, Daniel, and concept and ramifications of cognitive time travel.
Okay, so if WHH, and the Losties do not fix the incident then that means that they had the WRONG INFORMATION. Was Daniel wrong? Did the bomb not work? Did the bomb work and still nothing happened? No way to tell at this point. But as I said the only two clues is Richard's dialogue and Juliet's old double in 07.
Information is the key.
When you consider all of the examples of cognitive time travel we've seen on the show, and how it effectively altered the future, I think that this is going to be the key to ultimately make the changes everyone desires. Desmond, and Daniel, being the ones that know more about it through first hand experience and experimentation, are going to prove to be key.
So, quickly, what's the difference in the two time travel methods? Okay, one more bike and pot hole analogy.
THE BIKE AND THE POTHOLE 3
You ride the bike, hit the hole, break your arm, get a cast. But this time instead of having a neighbor named doc Brown, you have a neighbor named Doc Blue (please roll with me here), and Doc Blue wants you to come over and be the rat in his experiment. He says that he's discovered a way to send your mind back into time. He says he can send you back to before you hit the pot hole. You say great. He sits you down in a chair and puts a contraption over your head. He flips a switch and a purple light blasts your skull. You get dizzy and pass out. You wake up and you are looking at your brand new bike only days before. At first it feels like a vision of the future, but you remember everything you are about to do AND you remember hitting the pothole, breaking your arm, sitting in Doc Blue's chair, and blacking out. You realize why you are here.
To make a different CHOICE.
Now think about that word for a moment, choice, and compare it to the first example where you PHYSICALLY travel back in time with a bucket of cement. When you came back in time in the flesh, there are TWO of you occupying the same space. When you mind travel there is still just you in that time and space. But when you mind travel, you have FOREKNOWLEDGE of the future because you've experienced it. But when you physically travel, your past self is still ignorant of the negative future event you from the future are trying to prevent. So now the you from the future that experienced the pothole, have to now create ANOTHER EVENT that will change the outcome. But when you mind travel, all you do is make a different choice.
So, back one last time. You mind traveled back, you ride the bike, but you decide to go down a DIFFERENT STREET. Now, you could still hit another pothole and break the same arm, or leg, or get hit by a car and get taken in a home where you realize the young mother of the house is actually your mom and she's in love with you and.... sorry, wrong analogy.
Okay, really. In all probability, you go down a different street, you don't hit the pot hole on the original street because it is still there, but you avoid it all together. Now, some people are going to say; "fate/the universe is still going to break your arm because that's what's destined to happen." I say BS. I happen to not believe in a universe that is going to conspire all of it's resources to break your arm because that's what happened before. I know we are talking hypotheticals in the context of a fictional story, but the whole 'fate will find a way' argument to me is pointless when you are talking about time travel. I'm happy to debate that in another posting.
So, ultimately, you don't break your arm by way of a different choice you made based on foreknowledge of the future. You get dizzy and wake up in Doc Blue's chair. But now you have memories of BOTH hitting the pothole and breaking your arm, and also avoiding it all together. Now the real question is; does that cast you had from the first ride just disappear because you just went back and avoided the hole? Did you create a NEW TIMELINE when you mind traveled back? Well, according to what we've seen on LOST the answer is no to both questions.
I think what it boils down to is that having INFORMATION about the future in the time travel scenario is much better than physically traveling back. Because when you physically travel back you create an instant paradox of being in the same space with your past self, right? And not to get too far off the subject but in a quantum physics model of teleportation between two vast distances, it's actually the information about the physical properties of an object that is sent to the receiving end and not the actual thing itself. Just like a fax machine. I know time travel and teleportation are two different things, but in the quantum realm they're not too far apart.
So, in the end; my theory/predictions are that Desmond is going to end up going back to the island, but not physically, but mentally. He's going to go back and make different choices that will be enough to effect some of the significant events we've seen. The last time we see Des he's in a hospital. I think they are going to wheel him in for an MRI and when they turn it on it's going to trigger the electromagnetic scrambling in his brain and ZZZWHOOOSHHH!!! He's back in the hatch. And maybe this time he doesn't turn the key?
And Daniel, I believe we haven't seen the last of him. I believe we're going to see that Daniel was perfecting his mind time travel machine on Ann Arbor and that he was doing some mind jumping around of his own before he came back in 77 for the incident. And again, this based on my examples above, and although I acknowledge that my mind travel vs phys travel may not be 100% fleshed out, but I know strongly that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. And I believe it's why the show has put so much emphasis on that with those two characters.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
My next post is a theory on why the Losties had to come back to the island. I promise it's much shorter and has no potholes.
