So alot of theories are floating around about how Eloise Hawking knows certain information about the past and future. To some extent, Widmore and Ben are also in the know... as well as Jacob and Black shirt, and its clear their predictions do come true for the most part.
But one thing that is not clear at all is the motive of these individuals, who is on whose side, what is at stake, and what is the fallout from one side winning over the other. these mysteries have us all looking to season 6 for answers, but I think as always there is more to be rehashed from the past shows that have already been presented to us.
Eloise Hawking's relationship with Desmond for example -- the well known scene in Flashes Before Your Eyes has been used by many WHH supporters to prove Eloise knows what the fated outcome is, and Desmond when given the opportunity to change the past doesn't, and the common explanation is that he can't change the past even if he tried. Let's examine this scene and things Hawking said the might point to a different conclusion that can be drawn before we make up our minds that ALT is not possible.
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Lets go to the scene where Eloise meets up with Desmond in the ring shop in 1996 while Desmond is on a time flash, and she is suggesting that Desmond must not take the ring from her... the recap from lostpedia states:
"Desmond meets Ms. Hawking in the antique store where he attempts to buy Penny's ring. He is warned that he must not propose or else he will cause the end of the world."
more directly:
"Ms. Hawking tells the astonished Desmond that he isn't supposed to take the ring, because his not buying it led to his original fate of ending up on the island and turning the fail-safe key. She also states that "if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead."
OK... so is it that Eloise believes he cannot change the past because of his original fate, or is it that he can change the past but everyone would die in paradox if he did? These are two competing concepts meant to corner Desmond into submitting to her will, but they are mutually exclusive concepts as they relate to WHH vs ALT as we all would agree. Either your fate is your fate and you cannot change it (WHH) or if you are privileged enough you can change it (ALT) but you then flirt with the possibility that you cause a paradox. (but we also know Desmond is unique in this area, and I'm guessing so does Hawking)
Lets boil it down -- do you see these words from Eloise:
• original fate
• not supposed to
• every single one of us is dead
...this to me implies that it IS possible that desmond can change the past and Eloise believed he would unless she strong-armed him into submission that his fate is binding... perhaps just like was done to her in her past concerning Daniel (more on this in a minute).
So why would she threaten a paradoxical death for everyone if the universe really does course correct to fit a specific destiny and there's nothing to worry about?
It sounds to me like there are competing motives at work... and theres more to the story about why Hawking (and Widmore to an extent) are trying to manipulate Desmond's actions. They obviously know the chain of events to a certain point, how exactly is another matter... but the question remains -- if an original fate cannot be changed then why all the effort from Hawking to make sure Desmond does not meddle with it when he's flashing in the past?
Its like the scene in A Few Good Men where they give two stories as to why PFC Santiago was not transferred off the base -- was it because his life was in danger or was it because he was a substandard marine? There's more to this story that we're not being told, I promise you that.
Motive and manipulations are key to Lost, everyone has been both a manipulator and manipulated on the island... everyone has their own reasons why. but if you cant change things, then i would think there would be no battle for control.
yet -- there clearly is a battle happening, and Widmore tells us matter-of-factly that there is a battle happening -- and manipulation has been there all along of the pieces in play... the losties, desmond, faraday, lapidus, miles, llana, locke -- most all of the characters on the show have been utilized in some scheme or another. why is the question.
but again, assuming its a power play for control of the island, it would simply be because things can change (ALT) and the person in charge will benefit.
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Now lets go deeper on Hawking and Widmore -- is Daniels journal that arrived on their laps in 1977 how they know what is going to happen in the future? isnt it possible Daniel spent his 3 years between 1974-77 furthering his research on the island, figuring out specific events that happened, cause and effect scenarios, and wouldn't he reasonably have stored that information in his journal? i mean we already know desmond is mentioned in there... so perhaps desmonds uniqueness has been known for quite some time by hawking and widmore, and who knows what other gems are in there that tell the secrets of this crazy timeline we're seeing unfold.
But back to Faraday -- we know Eloise killed her own son before he was born, clearly this would be a detrimental moment in ones life... so the fact that shes so gung-ho about a set desiny in general could be explained by that whole scene, hawking shooting her unborn son... so thats the premise of her destiny way of thinking. or it could be that she tried to break out of that chain of events and was coerced by someone else, possibly widmore... which may be why Hawking slapped him across the face when they spoke of sacrificing Faraday to that fate.
But here the thing -- this is something Daniel flat out disagrees with just before he dies in poetic fashion. He tells Jack their destiny is not on the island, that basically they were dragged into this situation by Hawking. Faraday also comes right out and says you can change things -- he realizes that now. "This is their present" was his mantra -- and I believe that means more than 'any one of us can die.' It means that they are still creating their future, even though they are in the past... which means ALT is still on the table -- which of course is the whole point of detonating the bomb.
/////////////////////////
Lets for a second look at the whole incident scenario -- when you compare the timing of 1977 to the original blast door map, you see some strange inconsistencies in the dates. there are shut down times of 1981 and 1984 due to the incident, 4-7 years after the bomb would have exploded and dr chang was dead set on evacuation of the island right at that time... it seems reasonable to question that the incident we saw in the finale is not necessarily the same incident referred to on the blast door map. further, chang originally said that the incident occurred shortly after experiments began, but in 1977 the swan was just being built -- clearly there is an inconsistency here. so if the incident in season 5 is not the exact same incident that was referred to in the swan --- then i think we could be dealing with another instance of ALT here. and if thats the case then its almost certain the bomb going off has effectively changed the course of future events.
Now -- I cant imagine how the bomb going off would transmit the losties back to 2007 to meet up with the rest of the Ajira crew, so i wont even go there. For all we know they wake up after the bomb explodes, they then get on the last departing sub -- and the "bumpy ride" that richard indicated would make up the sub ride will get them back to a more recent point in time, reuniting with the rest of the crew.
Ultimately -- the nature of the characters in leadership roles needs to be fleshed out more in season 6 and i think it will, and once that happens we will figure out everyones motives, who is on whos side, and whether or not people are champions of pure destiny or champions of personal destiny.
but i submit that if its the latter, personal destiny, then that means ALT is what everyone is after...
ALT is why widmore is shelling out a million dollars for the log book, why ben is lying about every single thing on the island, why hawking is working her butt off down in the lamp post figuring out where the island will be... and who knows what the ultimate game is between jacob and black shirt, it could certainly be ALT.
i think its more than reasonable to conclude at this point that ALT is possible via the island, so the goal of the characters in power, and the nature of the game we are seeing --- is control over how time gets manipulated.
thanks, and cheers
But one thing that is not clear at all is the motive of these individuals, who is on whose side, what is at stake, and what is the fallout from one side winning over the other. these mysteries have us all looking to season 6 for answers, but I think as always there is more to be rehashed from the past shows that have already been presented to us.
Eloise Hawking's relationship with Desmond for example -- the well known scene in Flashes Before Your Eyes has been used by many WHH supporters to prove Eloise knows what the fated outcome is, and Desmond when given the opportunity to change the past doesn't, and the common explanation is that he can't change the past even if he tried. Let's examine this scene and things Hawking said the might point to a different conclusion that can be drawn before we make up our minds that ALT is not possible.
///////////////////
Lets go to the scene where Eloise meets up with Desmond in the ring shop in 1996 while Desmond is on a time flash, and she is suggesting that Desmond must not take the ring from her... the recap from lostpedia states:
"Desmond meets Ms. Hawking in the antique store where he attempts to buy Penny's ring. He is warned that he must not propose or else he will cause the end of the world."
more directly:
"Ms. Hawking tells the astonished Desmond that he isn't supposed to take the ring, because his not buying it led to his original fate of ending up on the island and turning the fail-safe key. She also states that "if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead."
OK... so is it that Eloise believes he cannot change the past because of his original fate, or is it that he can change the past but everyone would die in paradox if he did? These are two competing concepts meant to corner Desmond into submitting to her will, but they are mutually exclusive concepts as they relate to WHH vs ALT as we all would agree. Either your fate is your fate and you cannot change it (WHH) or if you are privileged enough you can change it (ALT) but you then flirt with the possibility that you cause a paradox. (but we also know Desmond is unique in this area, and I'm guessing so does Hawking)
Lets boil it down -- do you see these words from Eloise:
• original fate
• not supposed to
• every single one of us is dead
...this to me implies that it IS possible that desmond can change the past and Eloise believed he would unless she strong-armed him into submission that his fate is binding... perhaps just like was done to her in her past concerning Daniel (more on this in a minute).
So why would she threaten a paradoxical death for everyone if the universe really does course correct to fit a specific destiny and there's nothing to worry about?
It sounds to me like there are competing motives at work... and theres more to the story about why Hawking (and Widmore to an extent) are trying to manipulate Desmond's actions. They obviously know the chain of events to a certain point, how exactly is another matter... but the question remains -- if an original fate cannot be changed then why all the effort from Hawking to make sure Desmond does not meddle with it when he's flashing in the past?
Its like the scene in A Few Good Men where they give two stories as to why PFC Santiago was not transferred off the base -- was it because his life was in danger or was it because he was a substandard marine? There's more to this story that we're not being told, I promise you that.
Motive and manipulations are key to Lost, everyone has been both a manipulator and manipulated on the island... everyone has their own reasons why. but if you cant change things, then i would think there would be no battle for control.
yet -- there clearly is a battle happening, and Widmore tells us matter-of-factly that there is a battle happening -- and manipulation has been there all along of the pieces in play... the losties, desmond, faraday, lapidus, miles, llana, locke -- most all of the characters on the show have been utilized in some scheme or another. why is the question.
but again, assuming its a power play for control of the island, it would simply be because things can change (ALT) and the person in charge will benefit.
/////////////////
Now lets go deeper on Hawking and Widmore -- is Daniels journal that arrived on their laps in 1977 how they know what is going to happen in the future? isnt it possible Daniel spent his 3 years between 1974-77 furthering his research on the island, figuring out specific events that happened, cause and effect scenarios, and wouldn't he reasonably have stored that information in his journal? i mean we already know desmond is mentioned in there... so perhaps desmonds uniqueness has been known for quite some time by hawking and widmore, and who knows what other gems are in there that tell the secrets of this crazy timeline we're seeing unfold.
But back to Faraday -- we know Eloise killed her own son before he was born, clearly this would be a detrimental moment in ones life... so the fact that shes so gung-ho about a set desiny in general could be explained by that whole scene, hawking shooting her unborn son... so thats the premise of her destiny way of thinking. or it could be that she tried to break out of that chain of events and was coerced by someone else, possibly widmore... which may be why Hawking slapped him across the face when they spoke of sacrificing Faraday to that fate.
But here the thing -- this is something Daniel flat out disagrees with just before he dies in poetic fashion. He tells Jack their destiny is not on the island, that basically they were dragged into this situation by Hawking. Faraday also comes right out and says you can change things -- he realizes that now. "This is their present" was his mantra -- and I believe that means more than 'any one of us can die.' It means that they are still creating their future, even though they are in the past... which means ALT is still on the table -- which of course is the whole point of detonating the bomb.
/////////////////////////
Lets for a second look at the whole incident scenario -- when you compare the timing of 1977 to the original blast door map, you see some strange inconsistencies in the dates. there are shut down times of 1981 and 1984 due to the incident, 4-7 years after the bomb would have exploded and dr chang was dead set on evacuation of the island right at that time... it seems reasonable to question that the incident we saw in the finale is not necessarily the same incident referred to on the blast door map. further, chang originally said that the incident occurred shortly after experiments began, but in 1977 the swan was just being built -- clearly there is an inconsistency here. so if the incident in season 5 is not the exact same incident that was referred to in the swan --- then i think we could be dealing with another instance of ALT here. and if thats the case then its almost certain the bomb going off has effectively changed the course of future events.
Now -- I cant imagine how the bomb going off would transmit the losties back to 2007 to meet up with the rest of the Ajira crew, so i wont even go there. For all we know they wake up after the bomb explodes, they then get on the last departing sub -- and the "bumpy ride" that richard indicated would make up the sub ride will get them back to a more recent point in time, reuniting with the rest of the crew.
Ultimately -- the nature of the characters in leadership roles needs to be fleshed out more in season 6 and i think it will, and once that happens we will figure out everyones motives, who is on whos side, and whether or not people are champions of pure destiny or champions of personal destiny.
but i submit that if its the latter, personal destiny, then that means ALT is what everyone is after...
ALT is why widmore is shelling out a million dollars for the log book, why ben is lying about every single thing on the island, why hawking is working her butt off down in the lamp post figuring out where the island will be... and who knows what the ultimate game is between jacob and black shirt, it could certainly be ALT.
i think its more than reasonable to conclude at this point that ALT is possible via the island, so the goal of the characters in power, and the nature of the game we are seeing --- is control over how time gets manipulated.
thanks, and cheers
