I've been reading quite a few theories here and I've noticed that many think that Jacob and his counterpart are gods... While I'm certainly not in a position to denounce anyone's theories (anyone can be right about anything when it comes to this show), I for one can simply not accept this. If this show presents us with "magic" as the answer, I am going to feel betrayed by the creators for stringing us along.
A thought that I had was this... We know the island has healing properties. We also know that there was an ancient civilization, similar in many aspects to the Egyptians on the island at one point. If a people were allowed to live on this island long enough, perhaps they could find ways to manipulate the islands electromagnetic properties. While this may have led to their eventual destruction, it may have also led to abnormally long lifespans. What if this explains the reason why Jacob and his counterpart seem to be ageless? What if it's related to their abilities to use the knowledge of the island's original inhabitants to prolong their life? This, combined with the islands ability to manipulate time, could explain how these beings appear as "gods".
They appear to be human in other aspects, such as Jacob's need for food and his apparent lack of invulnerability against knives. He didn't just wink and create a fish, he actually had to go out and check a trap. He didn't shoot a bolt from his eyes to create a fire, he had to start the fire on his own. I'm hoping that all of these supposed "powers" these two major players appear to possess is nothing more than an enhanced understanding of the islands properties, and I feel that this level of understanding is best explained by making these two the last survivors of the islands original inhabitants.
I really hope this is the case, because if they do turn out to be gods in the literal sense, I may set fire to my DVDs.
A thought that I had was this... We know the island has healing properties. We also know that there was an ancient civilization, similar in many aspects to the Egyptians on the island at one point. If a people were allowed to live on this island long enough, perhaps they could find ways to manipulate the islands electromagnetic properties. While this may have led to their eventual destruction, it may have also led to abnormally long lifespans. What if this explains the reason why Jacob and his counterpart seem to be ageless? What if it's related to their abilities to use the knowledge of the island's original inhabitants to prolong their life? This, combined with the islands ability to manipulate time, could explain how these beings appear as "gods".
They appear to be human in other aspects, such as Jacob's need for food and his apparent lack of invulnerability against knives. He didn't just wink and create a fish, he actually had to go out and check a trap. He didn't shoot a bolt from his eyes to create a fire, he had to start the fire on his own. I'm hoping that all of these supposed "powers" these two major players appear to possess is nothing more than an enhanced understanding of the islands properties, and I feel that this level of understanding is best explained by making these two the last survivors of the islands original inhabitants.
I really hope this is the case, because if they do turn out to be gods in the literal sense, I may set fire to my DVDs.
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27 Comments:
Agreed... I don't want them to be Gods in that sense...
In addition to this, I was also thinking that we haven't seen Jacob leave the island until after Dharma times, I believe his earliest trip that we have seen has been to visit Sawyer. I think this is important because it means that he had physical means of leaving the island, either by the sub (albeit controlled by Dharma at the time) or by whatever method Richard used to leave the island in the fifties to see young Locke.
I totally agree Matt b.and i hope that Jacob and xman are Aaron and charlie or charlie and Aaron.their destiny would be to find their roots.simple nonegod answers
like ,they are ageless because they are back to a time that they have not yet born(the time between incident and their birthday is about their age,and they dont age ferther and cant die till the time reach the point of birth)
I can definitely see this as being the case. The unique properties of the Island could easily be what has allowed them to become ageless. I just hope some clarity is given, as to how that works, exactly.
And while I don't picture them as being the last remnants of an ancient civilization, I definitely don't think of them as Gods, either. No God, of any kind, is gonna die simply from a knife wound, I wouldn't think. But then again, no mortal person be able to "shapeshift" into Locke, either. So who knows how it will all play out.
I'm just curious to know why Jacob apparently gave that gift to Richard, HOW he gave it to Richard, and why no one else has been given the gift, since he received it. Only one can have it at a time, I guess?
Matthew said...
"In addition to this, I was also thinking that we haven't seen Jacob leave the island until after Dharma times, I believe his earliest trip that we have seen has been to visit Sawyer. I think this is important because it means that he had physical means of leaving the island, either by the sub (albeit controlled by Dharma at the time) or by whatever method Richard used to leave the island in the fifties to see young Locke."
He must have been using the same method that Richard (and Widmore, too, I think) was using, whatever that was. Because it would seem that he must have went off-Island to guide/summon/bring the Black Rock to the Island.
Hopefully they provide some clarity to that. Richard, at least, sure didn't seem to have any trouble getting to and from the Island, submarine, or no.
Something tells me they probably won't ever address it again, though. :(
good points about the fish and the trap etc. why would omnipotence need biochemical sustenance anyway!?!?
do you think Jacob is possibly looking for a successor?
Matt,
Please don't set fire to your DVDs!. Jacob and the MIB may or may not be gods. I like the idea that they could be from the future or from another universe. That would make sense of a lot of stuff. But I do believe there is plenty of magic on this show which is part of it's wow factor. Actually I think magic is something that happens that we don't have the answer to. 1000 years ago if someone came into my house and I flicked a switch and the lights came on they'd think it was magic. So maybe there are good explanations for some of the mysterious things that happen on the island.
Anyway I'd like to list a few of the "magical" things I've seen on the show. Locke's use of his legs returning, Walt appearing to Shannon and Sayid, Rose's cancer being cured, Jack's father appearing in the jungle, all of Christian Shepard's appearances, Mrs.Hawking knowing that the man with the red shoes will die, Walt's seeming ability to make things happen, moving the island with the frozen donkey wheel, people skipping through time because the wheel is off center, the whispers, the smoke monster and it's seeming ability to become a human being and kill people, Locke's resurection, Desmond's consciousness traveling, the descrepancy between island time and real world time as seen in Faraday's rocket experiments, the lampost and Mrs. Hawking's using it's calculations to get the 06 back to the island. I"m sure there's more, but I can't think of any right now.
Maybe before the show ends we'll get the answer to some of these mysterious happening. I hope so.
I don't think they are gods but I do think they are some sort of powerful beings, maybe a living manifestation of the island cause by the electromagnetism??
But I want them to be some thing cool!
They also seem pretty all knowing ... Jacob speaking so many languages and such
Carole Ann,
I think the main point that Matthew is trying to make is that he doesn't want anything going beyond the realm of science-fiction, and into fantasy land. And I have to say, I'm definitely with him on that!
I think that just about everything you brought up in your post can be, at least in part, explained by some form of science. Even if it's only theoretical science, like time travel, or telepathy. The main exception, of course, would be the monster. But given the fact that there's so much left to learn about the thing, I wouldn't rule out that some form of theoretical science may actually be able to make some sense out of it. :)
I also wouldn't want them to be gods but not mere mortals, whom somehow stumbled upon something great (the island and all of its wonder), either. How about them being inheritors of the island. Like they had a father figure (could be God or some other powerful entity), who believed his sons or lieutenants could watch over the island after he died or moved on to greater things (the rest of the world). As such Jacob and the man in black (whom I like to call Esau) received a mutual trust or partnership with both of them being completely equal in authority and power over the island. Provided, that a law be put in place (one that God or said entity learned from previous humans, (ex. Cain and Abel) that neither one of them would be able to hurt nor kill the other to gain more power for the other's self. Going on through the ages these two beings interpreted and followed through on their promise to uphold their leader's or father's last wishes, to change humanity for the better or some other utopian ideal, to the same extent. Both Jacob and MIB followed the path but eventually both of them pigeonholed themselves to the beliefs that we see them have in the beginning of the finale. And as a result both have and hopefully will continue to vie for control of the island and humanity's destiny in season 6.
I think Jacob probably left the island in the 1800s to do whatever he did to get the Blackrock to the island... unless he "brought them there" using some kind of power. I think there's probably another way to leave the island, maybe inside the temple. Something less dramatic than the donkey wheel and yet more transporter-like and instantaneous than a sub ride.
I do like your idea of them being the island's original inhabitants. One thing you made me think about is that when we first saw Flocke on the island alive again, he ate a mango, and that was when I said "Ok, he's no ghost. He's eating food." Not sure why I mention that. You just made me remember it. :-)
science fiction is fantasy. FICTION. come on people you're splitting hairs about nothing.
This argument doesn't make sense. This show was a "fantasy" the second it started. A plane rips apart mid-air, and people land safely on an island? Boom.
The fact is that we accepted this information knowing that their couldn't possibly be a realistic explanation. Yes, the show bases a wealth of information on theoretical science, but when it comes down to it there has to be some kind of "godly" influence. There are a ton of religious and spiritual allusions in the show, not to mention the infamous Room 23 video "God loves you as he loved Jacob."
The point is, this show has been leading us towards some kind of spiritual revelation about god and the nature of humanity from the very beginning.
Jacob can bring people back to life. Nemesis can take the form of others. These are god-like qualities. There are many ways to define god, and I predict these men will be some kind of gods, and probably not the traditional kind. What else could you possibly expect?
I came here just to rebuke March Madness' comment. All "stories" are fiction, but Sci-fi and Fantasy are two completely different genres. Sci-fi writers are usually professional scientists or physicists, or science geeks who collaborate with people from NASA. People like Joe Haldeman, Aurthur C. Clarke, Gentry Lee, Issac Asimov, Karl Schroeder, and Robert Charles Wilson. Sure, we haven't met any aliens, actually traveled anywhere close to lightspeed, regularly embed cybernetic implants, or have a space elevator. But the stories they tell are grounded in real physics and natural law, at least as we understood them at the time.
Fantasy is just that, fantasy. Just because a story involves space or time-travel doesn't make it "sci-fi". Are the John Carter stories "sci-fi"? No, they're fantasy.
As for Lost... Well, there are religious undertones, and many strange, seemingly unexplainable happenings. This past season took a hard "science of time-travel" turn. But the reveal of Jacob in the last episode seemed to throw a lot of this out the window. I'd be disappointed if he and Esau are revealed as "gods", but I don't expect a hard "science" explanation for everything that's happened, either.
haha ben, very good. you've dissected different genres. if anything, this show has mixed just about every genre there is. if you wanna choose one that it should be, that's on you, not the show.
Ok...we have got living beings made of smoke on LOST. We got people moving through time. We got people who are apparently immortal.
We got some kinda being that can take the appearance of dead people. Walking talking, eating mangoes, giving people knives.....
And there's some concern over someone being a "god"?? Ever read Chariot of the Gods?
What about books that are in the Sci-Fi Fantasy section of a book store? Or movies that are titled under Sci-fi/Fantasy? Is it Sci-fi plus fantasy or Sci-fi and Fantasy isnt there a new genre that combines the 2??? i know a lot of the writers you mentioned can also be put under the "speculative Fiction" category. Books that use scientific theory to predict the future (what they feel could happen) but to do it in a fictional way as we see in some novels.
Then I think of movies such as Star Wars(i don't know if anyone has heard of it ;)) Where it has major Sci-fi elements and plenty of fantasy elements such as Space travel and The Force... Lost has Time Travel and then Smoke Monster :)
So i'd call it Sci-Fi/Fantasy IMHO where gods can exist if the writers want to take that angle, but lets hope not :)
I hope the god card isn't played. Yes, there is a clear theme running throughout the show of faith vs science and is packed full of priests, baptism, churches etc but please let these themes/images be purely symbolic.
I dreamt last night that I watched season 5 and it was revealed that the Losties were on a ship which - Matrix a la Red Dwarf's Better Than Life stylee - projected the Island world to the Losties. Jacob was some psycho Ship Captain imprisoning them all whilst Black shirt was a Doctor/Ship hand trying to rescue them. Absolute utter trite of course but I'd prefer this to the God Solution.
Meant to say the dream was of season 6, not season 5...I must stop eating cheese before bedtime :)
I am tired of reading ,no more god issues! and Flocke is a joke if not a real version of original Locke
somehow.Cant rewatch any Flockes season 5 episode with the thought that this issue may be true.HE IS LOCKE TO THE BONE .Lets hope they clear these and get some answers at comic-con (lol).
It still seems that some of you are missing Matt's point. That's your perogative, I guess. And I'll let him speak for himself, if he ever checks this thread again. But in the meantime, let me try to clarify what I meant by the difference between sci-fi and fantasy.
Fist of all, Ben, THANK YOU for your post. I'm not sure how much more clear it can be spelled out than that. Kudos!
As for myself, when I think of science-fiction, I think of time travel, space travel, aliens, scientific experiments, theoretical science, (possible) future technology, etc. I think of movies like Back to the Future, Terminator, Predator, Resident Evil, and Star Trek. And television shows like Eureka and Fringe.
When I think of fantasy, I think of movies like Lord of the Rings, where it's a world made up of elves, dwarves, hobbits, orcs, WIZARDS, etc. Or movies like Clash of the Titans, Willow, Legend, Conan the Destroyer, Big Trouble in Little China, The Princess Bride, The Scorpion King 2 (yea, I watched it! lol), and yes, Masters of the Universe! Those movies all either consist of mythological creatures, or have some kind of sorcery at work. Or both. And they can't, and don't even attempt, to be explainable by any kind of science. Whether it be proven science, or just theoretical notions.
So there's definitely a line there, I think. And the only mysteries of Lost I can think of that completely defy logic are the monster, the "man in black" assuming the form of Locke, and perhaps maybe the wheel that moves the Island (not the time time travel part; just the actual moving of the Island). But with so much information that seemingly hasn't been presented to us, yet, there's no reason to think, that all of that stuff won't make sense, in the end.
And just to throw it out there. I consider the sci-fi/fantasy debate an entirely separate issue from fate and destiny. I am a 100% true believer in fate and destiny. And am 100% behind those things being part of the tapestry of the show! :)
Wow, I've started a pretty big debate it seems....
McMurphy, I think you've pretty much summed up most of my thoughts in your posts here, but I'll try to elaborate:
Lost is a show that has constantly kept us all on edge, taking notes and comparing theories. The writers know this. It's why they're so succesfull. We have waited for answers, and we expect quality, well thought out ones. To throw us a "God" or "Magic" would be the easy way out. It's far to simple to write off everything as magic, it's a complete cop out and a lazy way to end a show that to this point has attempted to stay fairly rooted in reality.
Carol Ann, you make a great point regarding the light switch. Advanced technology does seem like magic if it's not understood. We, the audience, have been the cave men fascinated by the light bulb for five seasons. I'm hoping that, in the end, they can give us an explanation that is at least somewhat rooted in the psuedo-science this show has spent the last three seasons establishing, rather than keeping us "in the dark", so to speak.
I love fantasy, and there are certain mystical themes in this show that I think are beautifully done because they are ambiguous, they're never up front and in your face.
Is it happenstance that these people's lives have mysteriously been intertwined even prior to the crash? Possibly. Hey, it could be fate. It could be coincidence. Who knows? I'm fine if they never address these types of questions. But to throw Gods in my face and tell me that it was some unexplained magical force that's been behind everything would be a huge letdown.
All I gotta say is, when you make yourself reject one notion completely, you're bound to be disappointed on some level in the end. the show can't satisfy every single viewer. I'd say it's 50/50 right now, whether LOST will end up being "magic" based or science based. Keep an open mind is my advice :)
I wasent really thinking that they were alone at first when i saw the beginning i thought that MIB came from like a group of people or something.
Firstly its just stupid its respectless, silly and shouldent be normal there is nothing smart with saying that they are "gods" i mean what dous that even mean.
I wonder if the healing has something to do with the temple? It could have something to do with the "timeproperties" if u want a deeper explanation.
And i wonder how dous Jacop get off the island...boat :)?