This theory was first submitted on 5th July 2007.
Let's go back to shortly after the turn of the Twentieth century, the days of Einstein and other early theoretical physicists. This was the dawn of the age of quantum mechanics, which provided new understanding and insight into physics at the sub-atomic level. New mathematics described the behavior of the tiny particles that make up all of matter in the universe. The math was clearly described in terms of numbers, symbols, formulas... however the application to nature as we know it was strange, weird, bizarre.
It was very difficult to wrap the human brain around many of the concepts of quantum mechanics, and the math alone was inadequate to explain the problems. Thus, physicists and mathematicians turned to "Gedanken Experiments," German for Thought Experiments. Applying the known concepts of quantum mechanics to situations in the "real world" allowed a conversation to take place in a way most anybody could (sort of) understand.
Before I lose you, here is an example. In the mathematics of quantum physics, time travel is THEORETICALLY possible. One of the most famous Gedanken Experiments is the Grandfather Paradox. If you could travel back in time, could you kill your grandfather? Logic tells you that no, you could not, for if you did, you would not exist. (Pause here and consider why Locke insists that "he can't" kill his father, he needs somebody else to do it.) The beautiful thing about Gedanken Experiments is that they are both scientific and philosophical, perfect fodder for a creative writer. In the case of the Grandfather Paradox, while they logic is clear, the actual experience of it is a mystery. Imagine actually standing there in the past, holding a loaded gun to the head of your grandfather... what would actually prevent you? "Something" would, some unknown mechanism of physics... and that is where the writers of "Lost" imagine for us.
"Lost" is a grand Gedanken Experiment, a test of science and philosophy. It asks the question, What if time travel were not only possible, but real, with technology developed in a manner as realistic and consistent with known theoretical physics as possible? And to make it even more dramatic, What if you could travel back in time, AND NOT KNOW IT? The passengers of Flight 815 have done exactly that, and the writers have made the audience go along with them, sharing the same sense of confusion and mystery.
Let's talk about what we know about time travel today. We are not talking about cheesy movies of the past, where one can travel back to the age of dinosaurs or the middle ages. In fact, in the "real" science of time travel, a few things are known by the constraints of physics and quantum mechanics.
There is a conceptual model of a real time machine, and it works something like this:
A time machine must have two parts, essentially two portals, connected by a wormhole (or black hole or whatever you want to call it). Door #1 is built alongside Door #2. Door #1 is allowed to continue along the "present"
timeline, while Door #2 is encapsulated in a bubble within space-time, thus separated from the present timeline. This would require a great amount of energy and technology obviously unknown today... but thanks to the writers of "Lost," it has been solved by Dharma Industries. The amount of separation would be only slight to begin with... say, 108 minutes. Since Door #1 exists in the present timeline, it can safely be located anywhere (Dharma headquarters?). Door #2, now operating in a different place in space-time, in the past, must be safely located in a remote location, for any type of interaction with it from the outside could be catastrophic.
There is a very important concept in time travel here, which is that you can NEVER travel back further in time than the creation of your time machine; Hence the impossibility of visiting the dinosaurs, etc. Now, if the two doors of your time machine were separated by only 108 minutes at the initial "event", but then allowed to just sit there, then both timelines would progress at the same pace, forever separated by only 108 minutes. Traveling to the past, but only by 108 minutes, would not be very interesting. Much more exciting would be to keep Door #2 back at the original time of its inception, while Door #1 continues to move forward in time. You could do this by continually "resetting" the clock on Door #2. Over time, the separation between the two doors would grow and grow, from minutes, to hours, to days, to years.
If you actually had the technology to achieve time travel in this manner, there are MANY profound questions you would have to test and answer in order to be confident that you could safely operate the time machine without catastrophically altering the future. The Grandfather Paradox is the most obvious, but actually only one of many questions.
ANSWER #1: What is the Dharma Initiative? It is the building and testing of a time machine, as described above. Door #1 is at the Dharma Headquarters, Door #2 is on the Island in the remote South Pacific.
The question isn't, Where is the Island? The question is, When is the Island? The answer to that depends on how long ago, in the present timeline, the time machine was created... approximately 14 years ago, I believe.
ANSWER #2: Why must the button be pushed every 108 minutes? This "resets"
the clock of Door #2 of the time machine, essentially holding it at the time of its inception in the relative past. If allowed to pass 108 minutes on the clock, then the time machine will lose the ability to reset itself. Why, then, must it be pressed by a person, and not just programmed to reset itself? This is because the controllers at Door #1 do not have control over Door #2 in the past, and should disaster strike, and nobody is left alive in the past at Door #2, it should be allowed to pass 108 minutes and no longer reset. ANSWER #3: What happened when the clock was allowed to pass 108 minutes? Door #2 of the time machine lost the ability to reset, and will now continue to progress along a timeline into the future, locked at approximately 14 years separation from Door #1.
What are some of the other critical questions, like the Grandfather Paradox, that must be answered when considering time travel? Here is a great one:
What if a childless woman travels back in time and conceives a child? ANSWER
#4: A childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman. In "Lost", both mother and child die before the birth, thus preserving the timeline and laws of nature. Perhaps the Others do not fully understand this, and brought in fertility doctor Juliet to see if they can overcome this obstacle.
Consider another:
What if a child travels back to a time before he or she was born? Perhaps nothing... but what if the child dies in the past, before being born? Again, impossible. ANSWER #5: The Others abduct children on the Island to protect them at all costs, for they cannot allow the catastrophic violation of the laws of nature of a child dying before being conceived.
And yet another:
If you travel to the past, will you be the "you" of the present timeline when you arrive, or the younger "you" of the past, or some combination of the two? I do not know, but I believe this offers insight into why John Locke can walk on the Island despite being paralyzed. ANSWER #6: Locke can walk not because the Island has powers to cure, but because he has traveled back to a time BEFORE he was ever paralyzed. He is somehow a blend of the Locke of the present and the Locke of the past.
Who is Ben? I believe he is the creator of the time machine. The Others are his associates living in the time-space bubble around the Island and Door #2 of the time machine in the "past." They are managing it and testing the effects of time travel, and strictly controlling who exits this bubble into the outside world.
How does one arrive at the Island? There are two methods of traveling to the site (and time) of the Island. First is the controlled method via Door #1 at Dharma Headquarters. It is not via plane, submarine, or any other traditional method of transportation.
The other method is in the accidental collision with the time-space bubble that surrounds the Island, as happened with Oceanic Flight 815, the Portuguese woman's helicopter, etc. Despite the many theories that abound in online forums, the Others did not know that Flight 815 was coming or going to crash at the Island. It was a chance encounter. It was a disaster that created a paradox... what happens to a plane that crashes in the present, while entering the past? This leads to the question of whether the passengers are alive or dead, answered by talking about a cat.
Schrodinger's cat, to be specific. Again, quantum mechanics can be very strange. One of the strangest behaviors in particle physics is known as Superposition, which is the ability of a particle to occupy two different states simultaneously (like up and down, left and right, here and there, etc.). In the world we know, you cannot be both here and there, but in particle physics, a world of probability, chance, and duality, you can. How can one imagine this? Another great Gedanken Experiment was conceived, as follows:
Place a cat in a sealed, steel box, along with a bottle of poison. In addition, a radioactive element is placed within the steel box. The decay of this radioactive element triggers a hammer, which breaks the bottle, releasing the poison and killing the cat. For the observer, outside of the box, you do not know when this radioactive decay happens. Because of the laws of Superposition, the radioactive element can occupy both states simultaneously, for the briefest moment. For that blink in time, the bottle is both broken and intact... the cat is both dead and alive, at the same time. This is a puzzle of science, but more important perhaps is the philosophical question of what does it mean to be both dead and alive?
ANSWER #7: The passengers of Oceanic Flight 815 are dead at the bottom of the ocean. AND they are ALIVE on the Island. They are both dead and alive. I told you that you would love this one. Since they are alive in the "past" of the Island's timeline, can they return to the present in which they are dead? I guess that is the ultimate question that we will have to watch the show to find out.
A suggestion of an answer is found in Locke's/Sawyer's father. We were led to believe that he died in a car accident, and finds himself here on the Island. Of course he would think he's in hell! We believe that somehow Locke "willed" him here, but that was actually never said on the show. In fact, Ben said to Locke, "you brought him here." Perhaps what he means is this:
ANSWER #8: Locke's father did not die in the accident. I believe that we will find soon that Locke is going to leave the Island. The question that nobody asked Locke's father was when did the accident happen? See, Locke is going to return to the "present" timeline, and is going to pursue his father. He is going to find him, perhaps he is even going to cause his accident. He is going to drug and kidnap him, unable or unwilling to kill him by himself. He is somehow going to get him to Door #1 of the time machine and send him to the Island, where he already knows that Sawyer will kill him. Locke is going to "bring him here" to the Island... he just hasn't done it yet. When he is on the "outside" in the present, why is he going to do this? Because he has to, because it is destiny... for on the Island, it has already happened. You know Locke loves destiny.
I could go on and on. Why is there a zoo with polar bears? ANSWER #9: The animals are on the Island for testing the effects of the various paradoxes associated with time travel. Perhaps another reason is that by keeping and preserving endangered animals, like polar bears, within this bubble in the past, there is a resource for their recovery should they become extinct in the future. Consider it a Noah's Ark.
How do the Others know so much about the passengers of Flight 815? ANSWER
#10: The Others have had perhaps years, with Dharma Industries in the present timeline at Door #1, to research each of the individuals, and transmit this information to the Island. To the audience and the survivors of 815, it seemed like the Others instantly knew about them. However, it likely required years of research to compile the files.
There are still mysteries that remain, and stories that we do not know how they will play out. With this explanation, though, the behavior of the Others is understood. They must protect the timeline AT ALL COSTS. That makes them seem evil to the survivors of 815, but in reality their intentions are to prevent catastrophe.
There are many other stories I haven't touched, but they are all consistent with this basic theory. This includes Desmond's apparent "time loop" he is experiencing, and many others.
So there it is. Or, I'm out of my mind. Time will tell.
Steve
Theory by SD Wynn
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140 Comments:
Nicely done. And you posted yours right after mine. Thanks a lot, you've really shown me up! The only hole I can really punch in your theory is the purple sky: If the worst thing that happens when the 108 minute clock is not reset is simply a less interesting time gap, why the nuclear-like explosion? A ripple in time? Not if your science holds up. Something to think about...
Angela,
Thanks for the comment. There is a perfect answer. Remember that Door #2 exists a mere 108 minutes before the initial "event" that first sent it back in time that 108 minutes. That event required tremendous energy, as I stated in my theory. If the clock is not reset, then you will experience/witness that initial event. How's that?
Steve
Great theory, the only thing I would disagree with you is the part about Locke wanting sawyer to kill his dad. Going with the grandfather theory, if Locke is unable to kill his dad, then Sawyer should no be able to kill him as well, for if the dad dies before Locke is concieved, no matter WHO kills him, locke will not exist.
In other words, if you travel back in time and you want to kill your grandfather, you obviously cant. This also means you cant get someone else to kill your grandfather.
I just thought of something: If locke cant kill his dad before he is concieved...
well, is Cooper really his blood-dad?
Remember Mikhail (patchy)? Didnt Locke kill him?
What if Patchy is Lockes dad? then that would explain why patchy was alive! although its a stretch
Damn, Steve, you're good. Okay, what about Smokie the black monster? Also, macabilly has an interesting point. According to your time travel theory, Locke's dad shouldn't be allowed to die, period. Maybe he won't...as we've seen, inhabitants of the island don't seem to stay dead. (I always wondered if Nikki the tv star and her boyfriend were forshadowing this concept with their spider "death.")
Also, what about the "sickness" and the quarantined hatch? Perhaps one possible result of a research study gone wrong?
Okay, my last attempt to discredit you: Your theory requires an intelligence level above the average level of Lost viewers (excluding us nerds, of course). You'd have to have some capacity to wrap your head around time paradoxes and parallel universes. Sadly, I don't think Joe Viewer necessarily paid much attention in physics class. While your theory kicks ass, wouldn't it be too heady for the viewers? Don't the writers have an obligation to appeal to the masses?
(Truthfully I want you to be right. Or me. That would be fun too.)
This is... Brilliant. I am about to burst into tears. I am a self proclaimed quantum physics geek, and I am quite satisfied with your theroy. I see no holes in this theroy, and it certainly does not jump the shark. The only thing that could possibly improve it is if you used the term superposition instead of blending. Still though, Great work man!
Thanks for the kudos! I actually thought of all this while varnishing my boat. Regarding Locke, and macabilly's comment, I am not directly invoking the grandfather paradox in this case. It is clearly not the same situation, for Locke has not traveled back before his own conception, so killing his father would not void himself. However, I believe there is some other situation taking place that will reveal itself that prohibits Locke from being the one to kill his father.
Is this storyline too heady for the audience? Well, the beautiful thing is that anybody will be able to understand the following question: If you traveled back in time at the very moment of your death in the present, could you return to the present in which you were dead? Quite a predicament. 99% of the audience will not grasp the details, but they will follow the drama.
The smokey monster? Could it be the personification of nature enforcing the timeline, the Laws of Nature... the mysterious force the would prevent you from killing your grandfather if you were standing there holding a gun to his head? We will see.
Thanks for the comments,
Steve
well done , great theory!! you are a smart fellow!
That´s a good one, but too complicated for the average viewer. I think the explanation for everything, if there will be one, will be much simpler and obvious, when we get to see the big picture, even with more elaborate theories around.
Let´s not forget that this is not art, is show business. If they loose more viewers, and they will with complicated theories, there will be no show.
Anyway, I like the time travel theories, but I don´t think Ben was the creator or controller of anything on the island; he just knows more of waht´s going on than the others.
Steve,
If deriving this theory was accomplished while polishing your boat what you could accomplish in painting your house would astonish me.
It appears to me that most attempts at discrediting this theory is marked at the "average viewer IQ" or ability to comprehend science. Consider Pulsoid Theory (PT), The basic idea of Pulsoid Theory is to develop a simple mathematical paradigm that will rationalize all the phenomena of Reality such that the layman will have little need for weakening or destroying faith in the Unified Concept, the confluence or union of Science, Theology, and Philosophy.
If a viewer can believe in the flux capacitor, Steve's theory is quite attainable.
The writers of the show have always proclaimed that everything that takes place can be explained by science/psuedo science. This theory, while a little heavy for the intellect of the average Joe, offers a perfectly feasible explanation to the conundrum that it Lost. The writers of the show are brilliantly intelligent and so are some of the shows most dedicated devotees. Awesome theory, top shelf.
Steve-
LOVE this theory.
I had something similar running through my head, but you verbalized it perfectly. (well, you wrote it)
Here's a question: could the two skeletons in the cave (Adam & Eve) belong to a couple of losties (ie Jack & Kate)?
Great theory. Also, that explains why people recover so easily and the wounds are not staying for too long. It's a similar thing to pregnancy. Adam and Eve should also fit nicely into this theory.
However, I can see a couple of holes. What about people dying? I assume that if they are older than 14, then nothing happens as in the current timeline they died in the plane crash. But then how could Locke travel back to the future?
Second thing is about how they knew about the current news, like Bush winning the elections and the news of plane missing? One explanation could be sending a recorded tape to the island. But how could Ben communicate with Richard in real time? Again, you can say it was just pre-recorded to make Juliet believe it's real time. I am not so sure about it.
Besides, what about Micheal and Walt leaving the island? Maybe Ben gave them the coordinates to the place they have to crash into to go back to the future, the same place whichc caused the plane and helicopter to move back in time. Sounds good.
Again, thank's for a great theory. Definitely the best so far, and explains virtually everything. Good job!
Angela
I think the writers would be smart to have a complex idea that viewers cant initially inderstand. Then they, like us would be interested in buying the dvd's and rewatching and thus more revenue for the show. SO i dont think that they neccesarilly have to pander to the masses. In fact its probably in their best interest (in terms of dollars and cents) to confuse the masses. I mean the show is over at this point (i would imagine) so there cant really be any damage done to the show in terms of viewers.
Steve - great theory,
My only question is what happened to Michael and Walt then?
After thinking for awhile I think I've found a problem with the time-travel theory. IF the Losties are infact living on the island, just at a different age... how is Claire still pregnant? Also, how are people dying on the island then?
Okay now on to write my own theory.
Good job though, it seems very plausible although it may not be all encompassing.
Interesting, yours is perhaps one of the more coherent theories out there. But riddle me this: how can time travel explain the web of connections between the surviving passengers? What are the odds? Your theory allows for one random event – the plane crash. However, the connections between the survivors imply that such connections are far from random. There is a hint that a greater force is at work; the survivors are meant to be on that island, and thus, are on the correct timeline.
to above, I think the writers are just putting all the connections between the survivors off the island with the concept of 6 degrees of separation. They talk about it in season 2 dvd.
Anyhow, I loved your theory. Can't quite grasp some of it. I'm no scientist.
But I don't agree with you that Ben built the time machine. He would have been too young I think. I think Ben is a puppet to someone else.
A good read. Well writ.
You would not believe how close my yet be released theory on time travel is to yours. We reached similar conclusions as well. I, too, suggested Locke's and Rose's healing to be the result of backwards time as well as the problem with fertilization. I passed my theory to several people via email about a month ago, but had become obsessed with other Tesla connections that I put the time problem aside. I can add a whole lot of evidence to your supposition and probably will at some future date. We are on very much the same wavelength. You're not really mad... or I am, too.
Have you considered the possibility that door #1 was opened in the past by none other than Tesla himself. He designed the Philadelphia Experiment and had personally experienced a peculiar past/present/future time phenomenon (as outlined in my post here). What if, in the lab and away from official eyes, he opened a doorway to the future. All the other Hanso inventions are his. Why not this?
psychadelicrelic, I'm eager to read your post, I'll watch for it. Indeed, you may be right about Tesla.
Hey, has anybody considered that Penny might be short for Persephone? Has that already been discussed?
Thanks for the posts,
Steve
When unfamiliar, go to dictionary. And I am completely unfamiliar with this name... er... was unfamliar.
Per·seph·o·ne
–noun 1. Also, Proserpina, Proserpine. Classical Mythology. a daughter of Zeus and Demeter, abducted by Pluto to be queen of Hades, but allowed to return to the surface of the earth for part of the year.
As far as I know, Penny introduced herself as Penelope – which is also the name of Odysseus’ wife.
Steve,
Wow!! Awesome theory, man!! Beside the things others have pointed out above me, I really can't think of another reason why this theory would not work!!
Excellent!!
Great theory. Before reading it I was thinking that the others had access to an infinite number of other realities. For example when Ben tell Juliette that her sisters cancer is in remission, they could have sifted through various futures to find one that suited their needs.
But your theory is much better. No woman can give birth because after conception the island resets back 108min and she no longer pregnant, but why do they all die? you would think that they just wouldn't be pregnant any longer. Just as you can't kill your grandfather (unless he has already fathered your father) you can't be born before you are conceived.
But there has to be more. The island had been attracting strange visitors and doing strange things since before the theory of time travel existed.
Perhaps when Desmond fails to push the button soon enough (causing flight 815 to crash) it causes the island to start racing towards the future (trying to catch up to door #1) If it did come close to catching up to door#1 time that might explain why Claire's baby is OK. It is not being born before it was conceived. Lock continues to push the button from then on, holding the island in place (time wise) until the end of season 2. Now the island is locked (no pun intended)about 108 min behind the future.
Can't wait for tonights show.
ok then same as with my last comment but this time i am linking it to the gedanken theory.
mittelos = lost time.
kk so on that screen in the meeting room whilst juliette is speaking with ethan and he other dude we see pictures of people riding bikes hiking and fishing, these pictures seem to be on the island.
if someone has lost a relative to cancer they can say they have lost time with them. so the lost time bioscience could take them to this place in time to live out some more years.
now i could be far out with this theory but when i thought of it i was quite pleased with myself so please tell me what you think
Nice theory. Well thought out.
I will take issue with your "why Locke can walk" theory, even though you admit not knowing. If Locke can walk now because he is now the past before he was injured, then Claire should not be pregnant, and Jack should have no tattoos.
Add this to your theory - what if some of the Others are a future generation of the Losties? What if Jacob is "future" Locke? Maybe the children must be protected so they can grow up to be Others?
Also, maybe those in the future can "watch" the past like a television show. This would answer the mystery of whether the Others can see through the eyes of the Losties. This has been hinted at by a commercial, and would explain how the Others know so much about them.
If they had traveled back in time.. wouldn't the producers then make lockes dad look at least a little younger?? if it's the 14 years that mentioned..
Nice theory anyway.. really well thought..
brewby, my beer said "No woman can give birth because after conception the island resets back 108 min and she no longer pregnant, but why do they all die? you would think that they just wouldn't be pregnant any longer. Just as you can't kill your grandfather (unless he has already fathered your father) you can't be born before you are conceived. "
This is exactly my thoughts. in order for the 'childless woman' to travel back in time, she must remail alive, but chidless. So it would make sense for her to be unable to reproduce, but not for her to die because shes pregnant.
The second thought i must raise here is regarding the 'smoke monster'. It seems its too obviously associated with good and evil / black and white. This also makes me question the role of 'the list'.
This concept of the island, or the smoke monster, or karma perhaps, knowing the difference between good people and evil people is too central to the story to be tossed aside.
My question would be, how does the theory of good and evil, or black and white (some see the smoke monster as black smoke [mr eko] and some see it as white flashes [locke]) fit into the time travel theory? Where does the others' list come into play? Ben's cancer?
The time travel thory explains why the children are taken - but why some of the adult tailies?
I think steve has a good base theory here...as for it being 'over the average joe's head' ... i don't think the writers /producers care. its still fun and easy to follow the drama without following 'the lost experience' or understanding the philosophy or relationships between characters...it just makes it that much more exciting for those of us who do follow the uderlying mystries .
Ross,
Good point. Show's over, what do they have to lose? I, for one, am glad they are not trying to pull an X Files move and drag us on for years and years. I suppose they could make this schtick as complicated as they damn well please. After all, WE'RE the viewers that count dammit!!
Steve, it seems to me that you could start your own religion.
-Angela
I love this theory and I've been talking about QP and space/time being a huge part of this show for the past month or so.
Desmond, the 2 planes, the fertilization issues, and the concept of the 108 button. Not to mention the statue, pillar, the black rock and the mysterious electromagnetic properties of the island.
However, I get stuck when I try to explain the connections, the numbers, the characters choices prior to the flight. I get stuck because I keep going back to Dharma and Alvar Hanso and the conception of the Initiative and the experiments conducted with the hopes of solving the valenzetti equation - changing one of the outcomes so that the world can be saved.
How would you explain the connections and the numbers?
fred
Steve,
I want your email addy, dude! After tonight's episode, we have some serious debating to do. Looks like my theory may be holding some water after all!!
Go underdogs...
-Angela (the theory-holder with a measley FOUR comments)
the theory on locke walking being a blend of his past and present.. was mikhail(?) blind before the island? and why was charlie still an addict when he should have been 'blend cured' like locke?
You're right about the time travel. Here are some more clues:
The Hostiles are the Dharma's "lab rats" that escaped and retaliated. That's why Richard hasn't aged. Now that the hutch blew up, time can not be set back and will now progress. That's why Ben's tumor grew. The losties all are connected and therefore had to be removed together in order to prevent a change in destiny-a catastrophe-a domino effect-the same kind of events that would change if you went back in time and killed your mother before you were conceived or if you went back in time and evacuated a building before an explosion, saving hundreds of lives, but ultimately changing the families and other lives also, now that history would have to be rewritten with those who will now be living in it.
I like this theory a lot. It's the most comprehensive one I've read to date. After watching "the man behind the curtain" last night, I'm thinking Jacob is likely the smoke monster stuck in between both timelines, similar to Desmond but "more-stuck", if that makes sense. I also like the explanation of how Locke regained his ability to walk. Bravo.
This theory makes no sense. For some reason you get all confused with the whole time travel point. For instance you say:
"A childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman. "
If a woman travels back to the past, lets call her woman(1), whether or not she conceives a child has no bearing on the fact that she was childless when she did the time travel. The original woman is not affected by woman(1)'s actions because woman(1) is always woman's future. They can coexist in the same time, but woman will be unaffected by anything that woman(1) does to herself...including having a child.
This same arguement goes for your conclusion about the children. So what if a child dies in the past. As long as it was the child who performed the time travel, the original timeline is unaffected. This is because per the original timeline, child is born, child travels back in time, child dies. The child dying in the past has no relevance to the fact that the child will be born, and then will travel back in time.
The whole time travel theory in general is interesting, you just need to straighten out your thinking.
Didn't Lindeloff say it was not time travel in the debunking?
Time travel vs. parallel universes. This is difficult for me to wrap my mind around. However, I watched a show explaining parallel universes. We have always been taught that an object cannot be in two places at the same time. However, what if that object moved very fast (like the superhero "the Flash"). When you see the Flash running very fast you can see him being in several places at the same time. Another example is when you pluck the string of a guitar, while it is vibrating you can see the string in different places at the same time. The way I understood the concept, sub atomic particles like electrons move incredibly fast. With that simplistic explanation, the show theorized our existence in an infinite number of universes. This could get around the grandfather paradox. If you or someone else went back and killed your grandfather, it is still possible that your grandfather as well as yourself could still be alive and well in an alternative universe. It would just be a matter of getting to that alternative universe.
With time travel, I just have a hard time getting around the questions of the paradoxes. One theory is the others kidnap the children to make sure nothing bad happens to them? My question is how do we know how effective they are at being guardians. In real life, things happen, accidents happen. I hate to hear in the news of tragedies where young children are killed. I think the Others may be extremely careful in trying to protect the children on the island but there are no guarantees they will always be 100% successful.
Finally, by following the time travel theory. I saw a screencap of Locke reading Sawyer's dossier given to him by Richard in the red notebook. It was written in French. So it is possible Door #1 (Dharma headquarters) is located in France, Belgium, or any other French speaking territory like islands in the Caribbean.
Great post though, I just have to work my way through those paradoxes.
steve!i dont think i need to say this ,coz u have heard enough of it by now,but ill still say it.......ur awesome man! u should have been 1 of the writers.....ur that good.
but i just have a few questions,and i wld really love to get answers from u,may b i misunderstood a lot in ur theory....but,if they have really travelled back in past,how did aron take birth or how will sun's child take birth?,since there cant b a real future for them coz the flight has actually crashed with every1 dead in it?
and if smokey is the personification of nature enforcing the timeline, the Laws of Nature...then why did it kill eko?
ill look forward to ur answer.
but dude u rock anyways.....bye
There is a lot of theories here that makes sense, and then there are many tangents and explanations here that are out on a limb, they contradict themselves, such as it being the past and locke not being paralyzed because he wasn't previously, but as people commented, other passengers pasts followed them to the island.
In fact Locke is the only person to have a change that resembled his past after the crash. Charlie was even still addicted to Heroin.
Also you say in the Grandfather paradox that Locke cannot physically kill his father but Sawyer can... this not only contradicts itself but it also contradicts the no birth and no death theory that would all have to be present for this theory to work..
If no one can be born to keep continuity with the past and present than no one can die, and basically nothing could happen to anyone, because why stop with death and life, what about experiences and emotions and new thoughts, nothing should be able to change to keep continuity in the future.
what bothers me about the whole gedanken theory are sentences like this one:
What if a childless woman travels back in time and conceives a child? ANSWER
#4: A childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman.
that's just a ridiculous answer--it confuses semantics (the laws of meaning) with physics (the laws of reality). if a "childless" woman travels back in time and conceives a child, what's the paradox? remember: whether you travel back in time or forward, your personal concept of time--relative to yourself--does not change (i.e., if i travel back in time and vomit, let's say, my sense that my vomiting happened AFTER my time-traveling NEVER wavers). this is what einstein established--relativity; this is what makes time travel theoretically possible in the first place.
if, in 2010, a woman travels back in time and has a child in 1970, she hasn't created a paradox. the only paradox is one of meaning: what does it mean to say that she is childless right now, in 2007? but her life, in reality, makes sense: you can describe it as a series of events, all happening one after the next, in perfectly linear fashion. there will be a time, of course, when she has "duplicated" herself--she will exist twice in the same time--but each version of herself is distinct and doesn't compete with one another. the gedanken theory suggests otherwise, because its author fails to grasp the concept of relativity. he's trying to form absolutes in world where time travel is possible. i don't think so.
to put it another way, i feel like this theory says, "if you travel 1,000 years into the future that means you will have lived for over 1,000 years." but that's just not true. you will experience life normally. it's all relative.
there is nothing that makes traveling back in time and then having a child physically impossible. if you can travel back in time--if you can actually exist in your own past--that means you can interact with your past in all the ways that "existing" implies.
if you CANNOT do certain things, like get pregnant or kill someone, if the laws of physics prevent you from acting in an otherwise "normal" way, then you have not successfully time-traveled. you are somewhere else, in an alternate dimension perhaps, where different laws of physics govern your behavior.
i'll take a voodoo curse over this explanation any day.
Douglas,
I believe you have misapplied relativity to this case. Time is relative to a traveler, say, and a distant observor. The perception of time is relative to velocity of the traveler moving through space-time as compared to that of the observor, and further altered by massive objects that drastically distort the flow of space-time. Space-time, as envisaged by Einstein, flows smoothly, and does not contemplate "jumping" from point A to point B without traveling through space-time. It is questionable if a wormhole is possible at all; and even if it is, the ability to "rewind the clock" within a time-space bubble is pure fantasy. In my theory, the Losties exist in a bubble that represents a region of space-time that has already "flowed." You're telling me that this is inconsequential? Because Einstein said so? Sorry, but Einstein didn't watch Lost, he had more pressing things to do.
Since you like examples, here is one. Imagine you look through a telescope to a distant galaxy. You think it is quite beautiful and you should like to travel there. What you see through that telescope is the galaxy of the past, say 100 million years ago. Space-time, which flows continually and irreversibly, has already flowed in the image you see. Your perception of it and time is relative to your particular place and velocity through space-time as you sit in your back yard. So you jump in your spaceship, travel near the speed of light, check it out, and decide to come home. Yes, your perception of time will have never seemed to change to you, but to your nerdy friends back home time has passed quite differently while you were traveling. Yet no matter what you do, you will NEVER be able to get back home in time to look back through your telescope to see yourself out at that galaxy... thus the misapplication of relativity to the time travel of science fiction.
Dislike the theory if you want, but don't invoke Einstein. Personally, I think he would quite enjoy it. Furthermore, in your conception of time travel, nothing interesting happens. Thus, you have ignored the most important law of all, the Law of Hollywood Physics, which clearly states that when one time travels, very interesting and confusing things happen. Your show, in which one travels back in time and nothing particularly interesting happens, would be quite boring. Something like a voodoo curse to watch.
You also presuppose that you can be duplicated in the universe without consequence. Allow the show's creators to envisage a little creative drama, as they might imagine a complex relationship between those who have traveled to the past and their "duplicates". In the world of Lost, if you do travel to the past and vomit, the "you" of the past just might feel a little sick. So pass the Pepto Bismol and enjoy the show.
Steve
5/10/07
http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-gedanken-experiment-tale-of-time.html
You've got another believer here, Steve. What is great about it is that it keep the show bounded in naturalistic explanations. (Although time travel is largely fiction, there are indeed enough theories to make it plausible even in a purely naturalistic paradigm.) The other great thing it does is that it allows for creative license in explaning how certain things will play out. You explain this very well in terms of the Gedanken experiments--we know that logically certain things must/must not happen, but we are simply clueless as to how nature will react to them. Will the universe implode? Will smoke monsters arise? Will people fade in and out of dimensions--is this what is happening to Jacob?
With that said, I don't give Daniel's criticism above any credence. Or Douglas. The whole point of Steve's theory is that the show Lost is basically the writers' theory of how these things might play out. There are a lot of theories on time travel, and as of yet there is no way to tell one person that his theory is incorrect. It's all grist for the philosophical mill. It's like debating whether the leprechaun will lead you to the north or the south end of the rainbow to find the pot of gold. Well, it's not quite as bad as that, but they're both empirically unverifiable, so let's run with the theory--it's a damn good one as it gives defensible explanations to a hell of a lot of stuff.
So I buy the idea that Locke couldn't kill his dad, because that would mean that that his dad never pushed him out the window, probably never would have gone on the walkabout, and thus never been on the island. Or that babies can't be born--assuming that this reality/timeline/dimension is dependent upon the "actual"/present reality/timeline/dimension, then it would make sense that a baby could not begin existence on the island--it must be conceived off-island, thus establishing its existence in the primary reality. Once that existence is established, then it can be born on the island. In fact, children might be more "powerful" on the island, because they are less constrained than those who have more of their lives anchored in the primary reality. Locke can't kill his pop because it would disrupt too many things in the primary reality. But a child born on the island would have virtually no such constraints. Maybe this is why Ben is powerful relative to the other "others," assuming they weren't born on-island. At any rate, this could explain why children are so sought-after.
Desmond's visions could be another way that nature on the island might be working things out for itself to resolve the temporal-dimensional stress.
The questions that are for me still unanswered are these:
How could Walt have the powers he appeared to have off-island?
How did the psychic seem to know about the Oceanic flight? Was this, like Desmond's visions, a way that nature was trying to work things out? That the island for some reason "needs" Claire and/or her baby?
When the hatch blew up, Ben and the others didn't seem to think much of it. Seems that if they realized its importance, they would have stopped what they were doing and said "holy crap, that sounds like it came from the Swan! That's seriously going to muck up our plans!" Seems that they simply don't know about this whole inter-dimensional phenomenon--if that is what is going on. And that seems hard to stomach. I mean, even according to the theory, that's how they're getting all their info on the passengers--through the dimensional door. So they must know something about how it works, no?
Tim
Steve, This is a very well thought theory...but there are a couple of holes I could find, and would love your thought on it. One is that your solution for the "grandfather paradox" is that Lock couldn't kill his own dad, and I know this was said before this weeks episode, but we saw that Ben didn't have a problem with that.
I think a mistake many people make when they think of time travel is that they think of time as a continuous line that goes forward and backwards. However, if you are familiar with Godel's concept of block time and the fact that time makes the 4th dimension of sapce, and if you go back in time (saying that were possible) to the past, which is a fixed position in time, and were to change something, then the timeline would change and the course of present would be different and another space time dimension would form. Hence, a childless mother could go back in time and have a child and form a new present day in a different space/time dimension (considering that it's 4 dimensional, there are infinite possibilities)
Now my favourite part of your theory...shrodiner's cat. I love this theory, and I think it's genius with the losties...there is only one tiny problem. Shrodinger's cat can only be in the state of both dead and alive as longer as there are no observers, but as soon as you open the box, then reality kicks in, and you either have a dead cat, or a live one. Not both.
So, since there are observers of this "experiment" the losties can't stay in both state by that theory, per se. We have observers of them as dead (as Naiomi points out they've found their dead bodies), and observers of them as alive (the others and Russo).
The other thing is that if I open the box and the cat is dead, and I give you the box, and you look inside it, you will also see the cat dead, it won't change because the observer has changed.
Now, I am not saying the writers are going to be THAT technical. Just sharing my 2 cents.
But it's a brilliant theory.
One of my colleagues and I were also going to discuss the possibility of string theory. I might wait till the season ends before I bring it here for your comments.
I wasn't speaking of relativity in a technical sense, true. But Einstein's theories evolved from a concept of relativity; the math came later. (He said so.)
I appreciate your concession to Hollywood Physics, but I'm just a conservative nerd who takes himself too seriously. That, and I want LOST to be perfect.
Douglas, don't worry, I love poking fun at myself and my own theories as much as anyone. I just thought of another interesting aspect, more pertinent than relativity, and that is the first law of thermodynamics. If you are sitting there on the couch, typing on your computer, and another you pops through the door and sits beside you, I think we have a problem. I believe that qualifies as "creation of matter," a violation of the first law. Where once there was one, but now there are two... not exactly conservation of energy.
I can think of two fictional ways around this. The first is if the present can "borrow" against the future. But can the universe carry a "matter debt" or "matter surplus?" I doubt it. The wormhole cannot connect the two worlds to make one larger universe, because that would effectively double the universe.
The other way around it is if you and YOU "share" your place in the universe at that time. Hmmmm... now that sounds "Hollywood" interesting. What would the implication be for a child who has no other to "share" space with?
I don't think the Lost creators will really work this out to the nth degree, nor would the audience expect them to. What I do know is that time travel, if real, is frought with peril. And that would make an interesting show... even if it isn't Lost.
Steve
Wow, there are so many comments, how do I keep up?
Daniel, read the first law of thermodynamics.
Nello, I don't actually invoke the Grandfather Paradox re: Locke killing his father. I just think that it is telling how strongly he emphasized that he COULDN'T do it. Strongly reminiscent of the Grandfather Paradox, and I suspect there is more to the story than we know now.
Diana, I agree re: Schrodinger's Cat, and view it more as inspiration than direct correlation. You correctly refer to the Observor Paradox, that the act of observing creates the appearance of making one outcome happen vs. another (the cat is dead / the cat is alive). Regarding Godel's concept of block time, you would still seem to have a conflict with the first law of thermodynamics (see my comment above), unless an entire alternate universe were spawned.
Tim, we're on the same wavelength. Of late I have been focused on wondering why Ben and the Others no longer really cared about pressing the button.
Angela, I'm going to leave you a comment!
I love this show!
Steve
Great theory, just one thing to nitpick at though.
When you state that it is impossible for a child to travel back in time before conception and die, how is this impossible?
The child's death would have no affect on its birth. The only death that would directly affect the child's existance would be the death of the parent before conception like you stated.
I fail to see how the death of a child before conception is more catastrophic to the laws of time travel than an adult's death in the past, but after birth (as in Locke's father). Perhaps you could further explain your logic.
Also with the true introduction of Jacob, with the latest episode, in conjunction with the brainwashing videos, I personally feel that the children were taken not to protect the laws of nature. In my personal opinion it would just be because the child's mind is much more flexible than that of a fully deveoped adults, resulting in the easier brainwashing of the children.
Just my thoughts.
d
Man, there is so much wrong with your theory I hardly know where to start! The thing is, you sort of explain things into your own theory, and that doesn't work when your theory is wrong.
1. Button pushing to keep the door in place. This is cool, and you should have actually stopped right here and delved deeper into it. Like why the magnetic field, why the sealed of wall, what happens to the time-bubble now?
2. About the childless woman: a new timeline would start! Some theorize all possible timeline variations already exists (so there is a universe where your theory is true, just not this one).
3. Point 2 makes your fabrication about the abducting of children nonsense. Like I said, don't make every mystery a part of your theory, it will just sound more crazy.
4. Locke is not the younger version because of time travel. He didn't even go through the door. You state that time travel is only possible through a door, yet the people of Oceanic 815 crashed 'into' a time bubble. Explain that one to Einstein...
5. Schrodingers cat? Please, the theory clearly states that an observer will influence the state of the element, thereby sealing the fate of the cat. Even a bird observing a lostie is enough to stop the quantum uncertainty (dead/alive). Some say God is the ultimate observer and that's why everything is in a known state, but who observes God?
6. Locke's father is NOT Sawyers father. Also, he survived the crash and was taken away from the site of the accident. Come on, you can do better than that, did you even watch Lost?
You say you can go on, I don't doubt it. But it will suffer the same fate, debunkification. The problem lies in trying to take on every mystery with a single solution, and bending the explanation in your direction (like the polar bears).
PS, who is Jacob?
I think you are probably onto something here. For me, some of your suggestions don't take into account relativity. In that, according to relativity, one person travelling in time will have a timeline relative to them. That is, if I chopped off my arm in 2004, and the one armed 2007 me went back to 2003 - my arm wouldn't grow back, the 2007 me (which is in 2003) would still have only one arm, but the 2003 me would have 2 arms, and both the 2003 me and 2007 me would exist at the same time. The paradox of course comes in that how can you be in 2 places at the say time (or what would happend if the 2 mes meet). Some theories deal with that via the idea of infinate possibilities all playing out at once, into tangental universes... So for someone travelling back in time, it won't effect your current form (locke regaining his leg usage etc)..
However, I like theory.... A few thoughts to add
Much is made of peoples rocky relationships with their fathers (locke, sawyer, jack, claire,hugo,kate, ben etc etc), this wouldn't come into your time travel theory... however, people refer to mother nature and "father time" so it could just be dramatic tool, with a sly wink at the real plot.
You suggest the black fog would be the universe correcting itself - in which case why does it kill people (eko). The only thing I can think, is that through the actions of the people on the island then Eko fails to be born in the future (now), so fails to exist on the island (in the past), and the black fog is a visualisation of the process.
When desmond turned the key in the hatch it could of released some sort of "inter time spasm" which could have littered him across times. Like he's existing through several time periods at the same time. Rather than experiencing all of the events for a second time (which is how some people read it), it could just be that his whole time line has been shaken, and we're not seeing him living those events for the second time, but we're seeing him remembering his past in a different way - ie his memories are changing to incorporate the fact that desmond can occupy more than one time - hence have memories of the future,
however, for that to happend the events must play out in a certain way, which is why he has no choice but to follow the set pattern and end up back on the island, and to turn the key. What I think will happen is that desmond will realise that in the time up until he turns the key, then he has a line he's forced to follow to take him to that point because if he doesn't perform that preset pattern of events, then he wouldn't see the future and wouldn't know not to follow those events, but from the point where he turns the key he's making his own future and his visions are merely multiple possibilities playing out, so I think he will realise that he can change the future as long as it doesn't have an effect on the present (as anything which mean't he didn't turn the key would), hence charlie won't be killed.
As for locke not killing his father, I don't think there is a time paradox to stop him, but it would just follow the dramatic themes of father/offspring relationship problems.
As for not being able to give birth on the island, ben says "it happens when they conceive", could it be that this is another mechanism of mother nature fighting out father time, one saying you need 9 months of pregnancy before birth, yet 9 months never plays out, so the pregnancy can't happen. Of course, it probably couldn't work quite like this (scientifically - because the feotuses timeline would be with the mothers), but it's hollywood... Of course it could be that because time is all messed up, then odd things are happening to do with decay and cell death as they are hurtling though time, hence wounds heal quick, cancer never appears and children can't really ever be concieved.
Look into Donnie Darko, which follows similar (flawed) themese..
Math, you're not even bothering to read all the comments above yours. No, a single bird observing the Losties would not alter the outcome because the bird would be in the "box" with them. And let's all say it together now... Schrodinger's Cat is an INSPIRATION for an interesting conundrum, I've said that like 10 times now. Relativity does NOT address science fiction time travel postulated here. Again, read the above comments.
I'm surprised by how many people think that a "new timeline" just starts without consequence to the universe. Read the first law of thermodynamics... I will repeat this often... conservation of energy requires a consequence if you spontaneously pop into existence in the universe that has already passed. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Yet here is one of you, and now suddenly two of you... I'd say that qualifies as creation of matter/energy. That requires a consequence to keep the total amount of energy consistent at that moment in the universe. Yet you and so many others think, no big deal, just start a new timeline. Think it through.
Of course the tangents of my theory could be wrong, but they sure generate conversation, no? So how about having some fun with it, instead of repeating much of the same blather that has been addressed in comments above you didn't read. Especially Einstein. Last time I checked, Einstein didn't write a script. Read the title of this blog, maybe it is you who are lost... it is called "Lost Theories", not "Cosmology Theories."
Steve
At the end of last season - in the very last few seconds of the last episode - didn't we see Penny, at home in bed, get woken up by a phone call telling her about the purple sky event? Did she look 14 years older?
I'm not even sure if we actually saw her, or just heard her voice on the phone. Anyone remember?
Good question, I don't remember.
Steve
The mrs just suggested that rather than travelling through time, than in the island bubble, time is merely traveling backwards, and the button presses was there to stop the island spiraling back infinately...
some holes in this...
Where does the plane/chopper (can't remember) which drops the danso food supplies come from?
If Ben knows about the time travelling stuff - then how comes when the anomallie occurs, and the hatch detinates, he is not more worried. He merely comments to locke, "when the anonmalie occured, it sethered our link with the outside world", like he didn't care - not "ohh my god, we're all doomed!!!"
LOST is the result of John Titor's visit.
Eh? Nudge-nudge, wink-wink. Say. No. More!
http://www.johntitor.com/
(March 2001)
Q)
A simple "E=Mc^2" isn't the answer.
John Titor)
You asked where the mass comes from. I simply pointed out that mass and energy are interchangeable in the same equation. One of my Stanford pals tells me there is a running gag about the chances a VW Beetle spontaneously appearing inside the accelerator. It could only come from the transfer of energy to mass."
Just remember everytime you say something about it here - changes it.
{writer's are cheating - making it up as they go along, free will.}
The cat is both there and not there and possibly has a time machine.
Life is a thought experiment.
I've said too much?
[not-janis]
DOOMSDAY APPROACHES!
Ah, I'm beginning to understand the whole Valenzetti aspect of Lost... thus time to slightly revise the theory!
Per the storyline of Lost and its online proginy, fictional Valenzetti devises/discovers an equation ("Valenzetti Equation") that definitively predicts the years remaining until humanity destroys itself. I imagine that the year is fast approaching, thus the desperate effort by the Hanso Foundation and others to change this apparently inevitable fate of the world.
My theory started with the premise that the timeline is being protected. But that's all wrong, it is just the opposite... the Dharma Initiative desperately seeks to change it. The Valenzetti Equation consists of 6 variables. We know the values they derive are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, we just don't know what they mean. But we do know that unless something happens to change at least one of these variables, humanity is doomed, and soon.
Problem is, even the Dharma Initiative doesn't know what must change to alter the equation. Social structure? Environment? War? They experiment in altering all of these. Meanwhile, at Door #1 in the present, the Valenzetti Equation is continually recalculated... or at least every 108 minutes. Unfortunately, nothing that the Initiative has done in this bubble in the past has yet altered the outcome of the equation... humanity is still doomed.
But perhaps the problem is that the Dharma Initiative set out with the purpose of changing the future. Maybe that deliberateness makes their effort futile. In the end, maybe it is the accidental arrivals, the Losties of Oceanic 815, who stand the only chance of changing events such that humanity is saved.
Any thoughts?
Steve
Steve,
I didn't mean that there would be two universes. I meant that in a 4 dimensional space-time universe, when you go back in time to a fixed position that is the past and change something (which the grandfather paradox says it is impossible to do and hence timetravel is impossible, but lets imagine that timetravel is possible and thus changing the past is too), then when you return to the present day you are at a different position in the space-time dimension than you were previously, thus your present day position has changed and I guess you can say you have changed the outcome of present day. It's like what happened in Back to the Future. Marty had to get his dad and mom to kiss or else he wouldn't be born, but because his dad had the courage to punch Biff, he ended up being successful instead of being a loser in the present day. Basically, what I am trying to say is that if you believe in time travel, then you can't believe in the 'grandfather paradox'...and also that time isn't a continuous line which goes back and forward, it's 4 dimensional, which is beyond me to even visualize. But I can only imagine if it was 3 dimensional how many different possibilities there can be!
Don't get me wrong tho...your theory is brilliant! And hence why so many have commented! It's thoughtful and thought provoking!
Your whole door #1 and 2, and the 108 minute difference is mind blowing! Where'd you come up with 14 years? Just wondering? Tho last week's episode kinda ruined that idea, as Ben was brought to the island when he was 11, and he's a lot older than 25.
Haven't put much thought on the Valenzetti Equation, but another one to chew on! Will sleep on it.
Hey Diana, thanks for the comments. The 14 years was way off, a result of typing out my whole theory late into the night. I basically agree with your conception of space-time, and your position in space. I guess the question is, are there "harmless" changes to the future vs. "paradoxical" changes? Are there shades of gray? Some things permissible and others not? I don't know.
However I don't think that time is 4 dimensional, but rather the 4th dimension, no? My understanding is that "real" time is 1 dimensional: forward-backward. Thanks to Hawking, in cosmological models, time can be thought of as 2 dimensional to aid in visualizing things like singularities and the Big Bang ("imaginary time"). But that seems to have mathematical meaning only, not a meaning that we can understand in our perception of time.
Think about the Valenzetti angle, it is clearly central to the story... somehow!
Steve
This SciFi channel interview with Lindelof seems to say clearly that time travel is not the answer:
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/handheld/30246.html
Hi Steve!
Stuff the interview! I think your a CHAMPION!!! Love the theory... I'm a year nine drop out and understood it perfectly, I noticed many had issues, but thats just because such an intricate idea was explained in one go... give the writers three more seasons and I'm certin everyone will understand it! It's okay if you've moved on from this theory, but it's a shame that everyone spent so long picking at it, that no one really had a play with it!! Like if a future self and a past self cannot exits in the same time without meshing some what,(something I noticed many refuse to believe) then perhaps that is what has happened to jacob? Perhaps he was killed, whils his future self and part of his past self have been destroyed, some part of him still exists, unable to grow, unable to die?
What do you think.
Just a theory... I notice there are so many incredible intellegent people posting comments, but they seem to not understand a simple word... theory. As in scientific theory, as in theoretical experiment, a in "we're not sure but this might happen" as in this is my lost theory!!!!
The more I think about this (especially timetravel being dismissed by the writers) - the more I think it's nearly correct. But rather than actual time travel, it's more an experiment in quantum physics. And that changes on the island effect things across the 4th dimension (ie time). So they are not travelling through time, more that the island experiments change things across times.
Jamie, you might be on to something. They are definitely manipulating time, and I think they've left quite a few loopholes in their various comments and interviews.
Adamandfelicity, somebody who understands! These theories are for fun! In the end, if I have been completely fooled by the show, I will enjoy it even more!
Steve
Steve,
you are right on the money...time is the 4th dimension. It's a bit hard to visualize, and I certainly can't visualize it myself. Like you said to make it easy to visualize, think of it in a 2 dimensional form. If you draw a car driving on a highway from point A to point B, and then put it on reverse and go back to A. Now draw wings on your car, why would it drive on the road to point B, it can now fly to point C and hover over point B. And now present day C, is a different you.
All I was trying to say is that with time as the 4th dimension it can allow you ultimate different possibilities. Though, I just thought of a problem with my own theory...if you hold space as constant (has to be on the island), then you don't get much leeway with time either...but it would still be in a 2 dimensional field, as you pointed out.
Again, like I said before, I love your shrodinger cat theory of the losties 2 state, and eventho technically it wouldn't flow, that doesn't mean that the writers wouldn't use it...because really what percentage of the population know about the observer rule?
Aso by your own theory, if the island is set in the past. Then the losties are held up in the past...and these dead bodies are in the present time. So what the future holds for our losties is being dead under the ocean.
There is something about the original habitant of the island. For example why hasn't Richard Alpert aged at all? I was thinking in terms of special relativity, if they were moving at the speed of light, they wouldn't age...but Ben has aged, so that doesn't hold up. Any thoughts?
Oh, another cool thought experiment, since this whole topic was on the Gedanken experiment is "Eternalism".
Now, I really don't know much about this...but it's really bizare and mind twisting! It's a philosophical view of time. The way I understand it, is that time is anybody's own perception. Basically...when I am writing this it is my present, but when you read it, it is my past and your present. but both are true! That is to say that, me writing this thinks it is the present, and you reading it thinks it is the present, and we can't be both true as it isn't happening simultaneously, but yet we are both correct. Eeeks...isn't that crazy!
Kinda like your door #1 and 2. At each door, it is the present time. Cool.
This has nothing to do with the theory...this whole gedanken theory and time thing reminded me of this and I thought of sharing. Also, my own thoughts on special relativity brought about 'eternalism' because of how events can be simultaneous in one frame, but not in another frame.
More on the special relativity thing I was thinking about it. You know how in special relativity the person traveling at half the speed of light will have events happen to them in different order than the person at rest...so if the losties were to be traveling at a fraction of speed of light...if they were to crash, to a person at rest, they crash they die. to a person on the plane, they crash, they survive...live on a weird island with trials and tribulations worthy of a tv show, and then they die (after 6 seasons).
Steve, as to the Valenzetti Equation theory, I'm not sure how much I like how this works.
First, I don't like the way it ties in with the 108 minutes. I like the idea that they created the time rift by 108 minutes because, well, it requires a hell of a lot of energy, and 108 minutes is all they could muster. I get that the magic numbers add up to 108, but golly, that just seems lame that anyone who had the intelligence to build all this stuff would think that adding up the values of variables is going to arrive at some super-important number. What if I said that if you take the number of days it takes Mercury to revolve around the sun, plus the number of K's typically found in a bowl of alphabet soup, plus the number of geese in a gaggle, that's how long it will take us to test to see if mankind will kill itself. Adding up those sorts of numbers can't tell you anything. It's just a random number. No?
Also, I am having trouble imagining how Dharma could believe that changing variables on that island would tell them whether mankind was still going to kill itself.
I still think we have gotten somewhere with your principal theory: that there was a 108 minute time rift and that they were able to preserve that rift by use of their giant magnet station, and Locke blew it all up and that's why Ben's tumor grew, etc. And I think that and the whole Cat-in-the-box idea helps to explain why Locke can walk--because he is somehow BOTH people: present Locke and past Locke, but that through his "faith," he is past Locke. He never believed that he was crippled. (That was the whole point of the walkabout story--his body was crippled but not his will.)
But as for the why, I don't think it's to do with saving the world. But I guess I don't have any better ideas as of yet.
Hmmmm... interesting thought, sort of time dilation gone crazy.
You know, obviously the writers of Lost aren't going to be that well versed in relativity, nor should they be. But certain aspects will grab their attention. If I had to guess, I'd bet that they would focus on the relationship between time and causality. What causes the end of humanity? What does it mean to be "inevitable" if you can manipulate the timeline?
Richard is interesting not only because he is not aging, but because he recruited Juliet off the island, what would have been about 2001. Same physical appearance as he had on the island in what must have been, or appeared to be, early 1970s, and again at the extermination of the Dharma Initiative 20 years later or so.
What is an "Original Inhabitant" doing off the island, recruiting anybody?
Separate subject... I'm fascinated by the number of people that have found this blog, and this posting thread, who are knowledgeable and interested in relativity, QP, cosmology. What is your story, Diana?
Then we can talk about whether the island is Atlantis. Think about it... an ancient island civilization that "disappeared?" And study the blast door map. It suggests an experiment started by ancients. I believe the person who was working out that map had in hand an ancient document he was using as a basis. He was trying to relate what he read in Latin on the ancient drawing to what he knew about the various chambers on the island. What is even more interesting is the dialogue between the English and Latin... "Credo nos in fluctu eodem esse" which means "I think we are on the same wavelength." THAT has a beautiful dual meaning. It means both that "we are thinking the same thing" AND "we are tuned to the same frequency." A conversation between parties separated by millenia?
Any thoughts?
Oh, my last Hmmmm... was to Diana. This Hmmmm... goes to Tim. I personally agree with your thoughts about Valenzetti, however I can't ignore the importance the show's creators seem to place on it. Tim, I think you are right on about Locke. Now what about that blast door map?
Steve
Very, very interesting theory. I hadn't even thought to look for theories on the show until the last episode - I've been watching solo and trying to soak it all in from the beginning. This is fantastic.
I read all the comments before mine and didn't see anything about THIS -- (if it's already been mentioned, sorry - didn't see it). You mention the Shrodinger cat -- did you see these images that were captured of Jacob? It looks like a CAT on his shoulder, does it not?
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/11-frames-of-jacob.html
SD Wynn, have you posted this theory in other Lost forums? If not, you are being plagiarized.
Nice theory but still many unsolved mysteries. Like the pirate ship. They believe it was a slaving ship from the late 1800's.
Not sure how it could get in the middle of the jungle. Unless a giant sunami put it there.
But the biggest problem I see is where are they getting the power for this time machine/ wormhole?
I haven't seen any eveidence of a nuclear reactor any where. Nor does it look like any one on the island has the capacity to run one.
Anyway for a time, magnetic or any other kind of a bubble to knock flight 815 out of the sky. Would have to be 30,000 or more feet in the air. The altitude most jets fly at.
Romain
bsti, I posted here and one other forum. Thanks for letting me know,
Steve
Hello all,
Thanks for your participation in this theory commentary thread. Now I invite you to view my new (partial) theory, "LOST: Plato's Atlantis Rebuilt, as the Osirian Clock Ticks to Apocolypse". It is from a totally different direction. And while I'm hardly the first to mention Atlantis, there are new details and insight I haven't seen before. I'd love you hear your comments. Thanks,
Steve
I haven't thought this through enough to see whether it conflicts with other parts of the mystery, but whilst I was reading your theory and in particular the part about the 108 minute timer's purpose. If I've understood your theory correctly, you are suggesting that the button was a means by which the losties were kept within a fixed period of 108 minutes in time relative to the rest of humanity, and that every time they pushed the button they were effectively distancing themselves 105-108 minutes further away from the rest of the world by staying in that fixed period whilst the rest of the world moved on.
Perhaps the island was actually never any more than 108 minutes in the past. Perhaps it was continually catching up with time in the rest of the world, and the button was resetting the time difference back to 108 minutes. Perhaps they had been shifted into an alternate universe, and magnetic activity in the hatch had to do with the temporal proximity of the two universes, and this was amplified as the two universes moved closer together on the temporal dimension. Perhaps the sky turning purple was an effect of the losties' universe catching up with the universe they had come from, and the two universes coming together and overlapping one another? Perhaps now they are back in the same time as the rest of the world and that's why only now have any new people been able to come to the island (Locke's dad, the girl in the helicopter).
Just an idea. Sorry if it's been posted already - I couldn't be had for reading every single comment ;)
Steve,
I don't have much of a story. I have a degree in Chem. I fell in love with QP when we had to learn about Quantum tunneling which to this day perplexes me. My collegue send me your theory...she's the one that reads up on LOST spoilers and theories, and liked yours the best so far, so sent it to me. I haven't read any other theory other than yours...don't you feel special ;P
gina, I do see the cat on his shoulders!!!
As far as the Valenzetti equation goes. How does it work? I wish there was a chat room we could meet and discuss...that'd be fun!
Steve, I'll read your new theory when I get a chance, but I don't know much about Atlantis unfortunately to be able to dicuss it any further...but it'd be interesting to read your theory nevertheless.
Hey Steve et all! Been gone all weekend...looks like I've missed out on a serious debate here! Steve, at the very least, you've stirred up some passion. I like Diana's idea about a chat room. Those of us that love Lost would probably love a chance to throw theories around "in person." Those of us that take theories a little too seriously might have to start their own chat rooms.
I have to admit that it took me a long time to catch myself up on all the comments, and many of them I had to reread a couple of times. Diana, you may have a capacity for QP, but dammitjim, I'm only a psychotherapist! (Hence, possibly proving my previous holepunching that this theory is AWFULLY heady. Or I'm AWFULLY stupid. One or the other.)
Anyway, I'd love to comment on the Atlantis theory, but I need this week's episode to test one of my ideas. It's a surprise. In the meantime, I'd love to point out some interesting psychology (shocking, right? from a therapist?) occurring on the show, but again, maybe more suited to a chat room??
Thanks for your comment, Steve. I'm still liking the idea that something was discovered on this island, as it seems to more suitably fit Akkam's Razor. (Hakkam? What was that guy's name?) And can someone point me to a website where I can educate myself on the Valenzetti equation?
A very well thought out Science Fiction explanation. Almost attuned to H.G. Wells and the Time Machine. Just enough science to get us to accept the leap of time travel to the past.
It is well known that we can travel to the future, not our future but the future of everyone that didn't travel with us. However, time only flows forward and therefore we can never travel into the past. Atleast that is what all experimental eveidence and theories (not hypothosis) demonstrate. That is what would makes this Science Fiction.
However, it is a shame that it can not be so. There is one bit of evidence that stops this explantion in its tracks. The boat that Desmond was on had a tracking device and once the key was turned and the energy released the signal was picked up by people manning a base. Now I guess you could try to explain that out by saying the entire island was sent somewhere in time and that they never truely moved that far into the future or something but this would not fit a well designed Science Fiction story. The story would deviate from the human interaction with the "New Science" and become about explaining the theory and definately leave a bad taste in the viewers mouths. It has to be better than that.
Love the theory, but lets broaden this a bit. I'm far from any expert in spelling or science. so forgive my slight ignorance.
The doors you mention... maybe there is more then 2 doors. meaning you can move throught out dimentions or time loops or time holes.
You can hide stuff with in them. So if they can trap lockes dad in one of them to prove a point.
the time loops can be any time maybe each time machine is a time loop and there are X amount of time machines so x amount of dimentions.
There for if you know where one is at and can possible control it from a main station you can start to play with destiny or what time loops is doing what ever..
oh goodness It's getting harder for me to wrap my mind around this again!
the real time is the island
i need to expand on this and i did and lost it:) so
thanks for the post and the inspiration.. i think we are on the right track.
Steve-
Wow, I've been reading your theory, and the comments it has provoked. I am very very impressed with the overall concept, but just found a snag on the 108 minute aspect (which is unfortunate, as it was one of my favorite parts!). While doing research on lostpedia, I encountered the following:
Dr. Marvin Candle mentioned that there was "an incident" which resulted in the creation of a protocol that required a code to be entered every 108 minutes. The incident involved a leak in the containment associated with an electromagnetic anomaly. The leak caused an unspecified charge to build up within the anomaly. As the charge built up, the magnetic field associated with the anomaly grew. After 108 minutes, the magnetic field is large enough to damage the Swan station. This incident had to have occurred before 1980 (the production date of the film).
It is unknown exactly what caused the incident to occur, or what kind of damage it caused. The protocol was created so that the magnetic anomaly could be discharged every 108 minutes, thus preventing a electromagnetic catastrophe.
This pretty much discounts the "resetting" of the clock to keep Door #2 in the past. I do still believe that time travel or slips are an integral part of the entirety of the show's concept. You have re-sparked my LOST-obsessive side, and I hope to add my own theory (most probably an offshoot of yours) in the near future. This past season had become too "soap opera-ish" until the last few episodes, and strayed from the true mystery aspect of LOST. I'm glad to see they're back on track, and look forward to future theorizing with you, Diana, and everyone else......
-Doug
**I also read your Atlantis theory, and again, was impressed. I, however, find this one more tangible, and plausible even.... I think the numerous symbols are exactly that - symbology used by the creators of the Iniative with an affinity for myhtology. You probably use aspects of your life that you enjoy (LOST possibly) in your work (passwords possibly) - I know I do......
OMG, there's a lostpedia??? Where have I been?
Doug, I feel the same, last season LOST just lost it for me. I am glad they are back on track...it's just been getting better and better with each episode. This whole Jacob thing has put me in for a loop.
However, you seriously can't believe what Dr. Marvin Candle said in those videos to be true tho? He may have said that pushing that button would prevent an electromagnetic catastrophe, and that may be in fact true...but I do think there's more to it than just that....or else why do the Valenzetti numbers add up to 108 exactly the same amount to cause the electromagnetic disaster? I don't believe in coincidences. There is a meaning behind that. Also, how can you believe a person who changes his name? (thanks lostpedia :)
I can only hope someone smarter than all of us disproves your theory so I can go back to not knowing what was going on on this show!
Genius work on your part.
Diana (& Steve)-
In Desmond's flashbacks, the actual function of the countdown period was revealed. Kelvin explained that the incident was a leak from the Swan leading to a build-up of electromagnetic energy that had devastating effects. Hence, the countdown represents the maximum time limit for a "safe" charge build-up.
However, this build-up could be preset to the necessary amount of energy needed to reset the timeline to its original time. I'm not sure why I didn't think of that earlier.... Now, however, after the failsafe was activated, apparently time on the island remains active, and cannot be reset!!! A real conundrum to wrap your head around. Other relations to 108 include:
108 beads in the malas used by Buddhists and Hindus for chanting. They implement the following formula:
*6 x 3 x 2 x 3 = 108
*6 senses [sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought]
*3 aspects of time [past, present, future]
*2 condition of heart [pure or impure]
*3 possibilities of sentiment [like, dislike, indifference]
•In Fyodor Dostoevsky's short story "Notes From the Underground" the narrator muses that science will one day teach man that he possesses neither will nor uncontrollable urges and is nothing more than a piano key or organ stop opperating by laws of nature, and that if discovered, these laws could be used to compute human actions mathematically like tables of logarithims up to 108 - 000.
•In Homer's "The Odyssey," Odysseus is forced to fight off 108 suitors when he returns to his wife Penelope.
I believe all are relevant, if only symbolically. I especially like the Dostoevsky reference, and the possible Valenzetti implications.....
-Doug
Doug,
That is amazing! you just blew my mind with that. I knew I didn't believe in coincidences, but to have that many meanings behind one number is incredible!
Now that you've found a connection to "The Odyssey", you can't possibly still be thinking that the symbology used in LOST is only symbology? And Penny!! Does that mean Desmond is Odyssey? Again, I don't know much about mythology, but he was a proud man, and he did go on a trip - an Odyssey as it is now known...and his boat washed off to an island (sounds very Odyssey-ish to me). Has Penny been getting many suitors?
Oh, I am not disagreeing with you that the purpose of pushing the button was to discharge the electromagnetic built up...but, what I was merely entertaining was the idea that pushing the button also had another function and one that Steve theorized. Of course, all these are theories, and Steve has a wild imagination, and I might just start taking up sailing!
Wow, I haven't checked in on this thread in a while. Doug, I love your comments and way of thinking. I know you read my Atlantis theory, but more importantly when you have time check out the comment thread, especially my post from this morning that solidifies 1) the Kaballah connection and 2) Charlie = Osiris, among other tidbits! I want to hear your thoughts on my latest there, so check it out!
Steve
I was just wondering; Naomi, the girl who crashed from the helicopter and said they were all dead, wouldn't that mean that they're dead 14 years in the future? So, in reality, if they could manage to leave the island, then wouldn't they be 14 years before the day of the crash? Thus, they could prevent the crash, and would create a paradox (No crash = no one to stop the crash). I was wondering, then how would this paradox smooth itself out?
I'm abslutely in love with this theory, although it does seem to be oo much for Joe Viewer.
Great theory. Quick clarification if you please. The Oceanic 815 was affected by the electromagnetic pulse that resulted from Desmond not hitting the button in time, not running into the time/space bubble. Not a sermon, just a thought.
This theory is very similar to the premise in the movie "Primer." The science used in the film is actual science too. The film deals with time-travel and how the characters in the film have to make sure not to interfer with anything while they are traveling through time. It's hard for me to explain without going into a full synopsis, but if you watch it it makes perfect sense and actually applies to this theory and perhaps "Lost" overall.
Steve, was it Lost-TV? That's where I found the exact same theory buy under a different name.
So what about the video Juliet sees of her sister in the park with her child? The child is the appropriate age for the amount of time she's been on the island, surely the child wouldn't be conceived yet.
Bsti, I don't think it was Lost-TV, and I didn't use a different name. It would either be under SD Wynn or wynnter71.
ZJansen, thanks for the tip, I have not seen that movie and will have to check it out.
Steve
Steve, great theory and very interesting thread. I'd like to contribute by offering an alternative QM intepretation for having a person enter the numbers every 108 minutes.
As I understand it you're saying that it's essentially a "dead man's switch" so if disaster strikes in the time bubble, the timer won't be reset.
But there is another possibility. What if a human is in the loop so the result of entering the numbers is OBSERVED. As with Schrodinger's cat, observation collapses probabilities into an observed reality. Perhaps to maintain the reality of the island with it's bubble of spacetime, observation of the process was required.
Steve, (wynnter71)
You mentioned at the bottom of you theory, that you could go on to explain more of it, such as desmond's flashbacks, etc. Is there any way you would do that for me??? If you had time? I would absolutely LOVE to hear the rest. Fascinating!
Soph
Astroroach, interesting idea. Very plausible.
Soph, and others, not to pull the rug out from under you... but I have to recommend you read my theory post from last week, "LOST in Kabbalah, a Passion Play of Isis, Osiris, and Horus". The Isis-Osiris-Horus mythology is so clearly central to this story it is absolutely unavoidable. I won't go into it here, but consider that the myth includes a battle with a one-eyed man and death by harpoon, a mother goddess hiding her sacred child (the future leader) on a floating island that can't be found, and the central figure (Osiris, which is the "Dog Star", who is a "Rock Star" on Lost) who is trapped in a "coffin" and suffocated (drowned) to death... to be resurrected later....
Read about Isis-Osiris-Horus!!!
Steve
So I love the theory and I am clinging to it. One question based on the season finale. If the island is 14 years in the past how did was the freighter able to answer a satellite phone call from the island? I would venture to guess this is impossible based on your theories.
I looked up the Gedanken experiment in wikipedia and look who coined the phrase…Hans Christian Ørsted…so if you take his first name and first letter of his last name you get Hanso….like hanso corp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment
Also this hans fellow was best known for discovering the relationship between electricity and magnetism known as electromagnetism. Interesting links….and I have searched the message boards and don’t find anything on it yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Christian_%C3%98rsted
How does one arrive at the Island? There are two methods of traveling to the site (and time) of the Island. First is the controlled method via Door #1 at Dharma Headquarters. It is not via plane, submarine, or any other traditional method of transportation.
The other method is in the accidental collision with the time-space bubble that surrounds the Island, as happened with Oceanic Flight 815, the Portuguese woman's helicopter, etc.
Question.. one of many!
You say Ben is the creator of the time machine. How did Dharma get to the island in the first place then? Ben is what? 10-12 years old when he arrives on a sub. The DI has been in place for some time.. all those materials and people brought there. How was the island found in the first place and how did all those people and things get there if there are only two ways.. via Ben's time machine or accidental collison?
My second question. You write:
ANSWER #6: Locke can walk not because the Island has powers to cure, but because he has traveled back to a time BEFORE he was ever paralyzed. He is somehow a blend of the Locke of the present and the Locke of the past.
Have Claire and Charlie, for example not arrived on the same timeline as John Locke? Claire is still as pregnant when she arrives as she was when she got on the plane. Charlie, still addicted to drugs as he was before getting on the plane.
honestly, i don't see the writers doing something this "out there".. if they're going to have an explanation it's gonna be one they don't have to go into this much detail about and everyone will be able to understand.
This is such a great theory, and I think it's only picked up speed with the Orchid video. The "15" rabbit is not a clone, but rather the very same rabbit that has traveled back in time.
I submitted a supporting theory here, although it's nothing as strong as your theory:
http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2007/07/observations-of-orchid-orientation.html
People hate the time-travel theories, but I think they're going to have to except it for Season 4.
great theory too bad this is old news. losttv-forums have about 10 threads on this subject. very well written and explained well. people who say they found holes in your theory i guess just dont understand or need to read it again. nothing mentioned is new here but still a great read.
it will also explain why walt is taller now, why we wont get a danielle flashback anytime soon, why richard doesnt appear to age, the well known zombie season that tptb always talk about, the four toed statue, and why some of their lives are connected.
and why do people keep saying they will have to dumb down the show for people to get it? every season some fans stop watching while new ones start watching. is it that big of a deal if some people dont get it? everyone watches the show for different reasons and i watch it for the mythology and nothing else. i cant stand jack, kate, clair, rose ,benard, charlie, boone, shannon but my wife loves all those people on the show and could care less about the mythology.
this season will be mostly about dharma leading up to hanso, widmore and paik ceos in season 5 and then the island in season 6.
btw ben had nothing to do with creating any time machine but i think jacob who seems to be stuck in time seems to know something hmmm... i wonder how he got stuck there...
when i get to see alvar hanso the widmore brothers and mr paik on the show as regulars i will be a happy man.
I have a few comments. I like the theory, and have something to add about locke. First, a few things, The swan and the 108 minutes, we do not know why, or when or if there was an actual incident, we only know what was in the orientation video, and what Kelvin said. Kelvin only knows what he was told, he did not witness the incident. So, both as far as I am concerned are false. Second, the Lost Experience, anything in that game while it pertains to the show lost, should not be considered when trying to explain the show. The reason, the producers have said many times, that everything in the game was relevevant to the show, but in know way, would you need to know anything from the game to explain lost. That thing should just be considered fluff info, things that pertain, but not required to get from the beginning to the end of lost with an explanation.
With that, I think you are close with Locke. Consider this, lets not start with the crash for locke, lets start with him figuring out how to go back and get his dad, before he is thrown out of the window while he is on the island. He brings him back, OR, he has someone go back to real time, since on the island they are back in time, and get him. He has Sawyer kill him, in island time. Now, back to real time at the time Locke would have been thrown out the window, doesn't happen. Now, Locke is not paralyzed, he goes on the walkabout, he gets on the plance to return from Sydney, it crashes on the island, he can walk.
You might say, well, why was the wheelchair there, why did he get on the airplane in a wheelchair. I say becuase we observed from our point of view, John Locke before he got to the island and was able to bring his dad back in time to have him killed. I would say the moment John Locke was on the island from our point of view, he changed to the John Locke with a changed past of not being thrown out of a window. He would remember himself as being paralyzed becuase he hadn't done it yet.
Let that make your head spin and forget the valazetti equation, becasue it is not needed in the overal story of LOST.
I have more. :-)
I used to ask my physics prof, what would happen is you were traveling in your car at the speed of light and you turned on your headlightes?
He told me to look it up, I never did.
Anyway, light travels at a certain speed, the whole thing about time travel is basicly, to travel faster then light. So, imagine if you could travel faster then light. Lets say you puke, since someone used it, jump in your space ship and head to the moon, fast then light. You get there, and look back at where you just puked on earth through your super duper telescope. You should be able to watch yourself vomit, get in to a spaceship and fly at yourself. At some point, the past you, becomes you since you are only really viewing the light catching up with you since you were moving fast then light.
SOOO, how does this tie, not sure, thought I would throw it out there.
-The Grandfather Paradox: So Locke doesn’t kill his own father because if he does so he’s not going to exist in the future? So everything we saw so far was a flashback? And Jack’s flash-forward was actually a flashback? I can understand the laws of nature but what does it have to do with Locke’s failure on killing his father? And does it change anything someone else killing him other than Locke? Is it supposed to change anything? Now that Cooper is dead, killed by Sawyer, is Locke going to exist in the future? I didn’t understand it.
-If the Door #2 was destroyed in the past and it is reseted every 108 minutes to raise the separation between the two portals, then the Island really existed and it does exist until then. So, who ever find the island is still going to find old things on it. They won’t find it at the current days in case it’s been destroyed sometime in the past. The island we are watching is in 2004, or things can travel back in time too. (i.e.: images Ben showed Jack)
Sayid and Hurley grasped the song “Moonlight Serenade” and he said it comes from any where or any time. But this “time” must be in the past.
If childless travels back in time and can’t have babies cause they would not be childless in the present and the Others don’t know about it bringing Juliet to the island to see if she can find out what’s wrong then how would they get to know that they have to kidnap children in order to keep them safe and preventing any violation of the laws of nature? That didn’t make any sense to me.
If Locke leaves the island, come to the present and cause and accident in order to “bring him” to the island then why did Cooper say that Locke was his “dead son”?
If Ben really was the time machine creator, so what was the Purge for? What’s the plus having the “hostiles” as partners than the Dharma?
Yes, I find this theory very interesting and very well written but I don’t think that we’re going to see anything related to this. I think it’s easier for us to see something related to the movie “Lost Horizon”. Anyway it is good reading about these concepts, they can be important. That’s why I LOVE Lost. I learn things in a incredible way, no pressure.
Sorry for the crappy english, lol.
Daniel!
If the others didn't know about the crash, why was Ben in the airport, disguised as a worker?
I have come from the future just to tell you this theory is dead on.
Great theory. Could you explain how the connections between passengers before the crash factors into your theory?
Thanks
Is this guy still around?
I personally think your whole theory is off except for the part about there actually being a time machine on the Island, this would be the box ben is referring to which has the power to bring anything you imagine to the island.
i think that Ben is not the creator but that Jacob is the creator and the overuse of time travel has left him in his altered state of being
the time machine would explain the appearance of dead or supposedly dead people. i do beleive that the others are here to experiment on what happens when things travel through time. Richard is the one who now travels in the box to retreive people which would explain his non aging.
I think that the losties who crashed on the island have stumbled upon it and are all alive however everyone who was previously on the Island could be someone who has been brough back as someone who was once dead to further their time experiments (which would be why they brough anthony cooper back to see if the grandfather theory would pan out)
I realize that this theory doesnt explain everything and has many holes which i dont quite know the answers.(which i welcome criticism and conversation.) such as the numbers and now that they are not being entered the machine doesnt work? HOwever I am convinced that the creators have integrated a web of theories which we wil being to see unfold as season four starts, not just based one one major theory which is why your theory is flawed.
though i must say you do seem like a brilliant guy steve i just dont see your theory as being correct.
Ah, great to see people coming back with the start of the new season. Thanks for so many comments and reviews.
With the start of the new season (only 2 episodes so far) I see plenty that syncs with the theory and plenty that raises more questions. More importantly, I completely agree that the creators are not relying on any one single theory but are borrowing from many. To that end, I STRONGLY encourage those still checking in on this thread to read the theory that I posted AFTER this one, and which you can still find on this forum... "LOST in Kabbalah, a Passion Play of Isis, Osiris, and Horus." See what you think, I love the debate and discussion. Thanks!
Steve
Steve,
I really like your theory. Can I translate it into Polish and post it on the internet? Of course with you as the author.
Best
Piotr
Warsaw, Poland
Piotr, of course, and with my thanks! Steve
Steve,
Here is Polish translation :)
http://zales.blogspot.com/2008/02/wielki-gedankenexperiment-opowie-o.html
Best,
Piotr
Great insight! Thank you for putting so much thought and energy into this. One thing I wonder about is how Ben’s insecurity of Locke comes into play. We see Ben viewing Locke as some type of threat as the island seems to be responding to Locke. If you could share your thoughts on this or point me in the right direction, I’d appreciate it.
is it posible they could be in the future, not the past? i have no science to back that up...just a thought for you folks to chew on.
btw, this has been a fascinating read. thanks. :)
I really like your theory. The only question I have is, if they are in the past, (ie. Locke can walk, ect.) would Clair not be pregnant?
One question...you say Ben created this time machine? Ben was a child when he was on the island already and the dharma initiative was in full swing.....he killed his father...obviously he didn't cease to exist...he also kills all those on the island... did he build a time machine then? I believe he may have discovered it... and learned the secets of the island and traveled in and out of door #1 and #2...hence having all the passports, sayid found in the episode "The economist". I'm one of those viewers who can't envision the higher theories on quantum physics....too deep.
check out www.timelooptheory.com It applies time travel as a concept to the entire show, and backs this theory as well.
Well as of the February 28th episode it seems like this Theory might actually have come true
This theory seems to be proving very true in this season. My mind can only generally grasp the time travel theories, like most of the non-genius viewers. Because of this I can't really explain a concept I have, but here it is:
Jack is Jacob. Sorry if this is already a theory repetitively raised, I haven't seen it. Jack is a nickname for Jacob, first of all. Second, Jack, when he got his tatoo which tatoo reveals that he is a man of "greatness" with a great destiny to fulfill.
I think Jack in the flash-forwards has figured it out and hence his agony, his constant prime directive, to save, save, save...- the whole thing, how the universe must be saved, etc. Saving the universe would require first saving the Island and the friends on the Island, hence the imploring of Kate to go back, etc., but the bigger issue is saving the world from collapsing in on itself (or whatever happens when two timelines "paradox"- I'm not QP saavy. We will probably see that Jack has to figure out how to time-travel back-and-forth to make this all happen or to course- correct, etc. His attempts and going back and forth to set up events etc., leave him in the non-physical state we find Jacob...
Now bring in Locke, man of faith vs Jack, man of science. In the end Jack/Jacob will evolve to know that science and faith converge. At the point in time of the crash, Locke is more enlightened than Jack, that Jack is just a "limited" scientist at the time.
If the Jack=Jacob thing is on the right track, maybe there is something to the bloodline of Christian, Jack, Claire and Aaron, and maybe that can be found in the ISIS, whatever story that this genious Steve references, and it would also include Charlie.
Maybe Jack HAS to take Aaron from Claire to give to the person he loves and trusts (kate) to keep safe and to eventually bring Aaron back to the island. Maybe jack doesn't want to see Aaron, and Kate's insistance that Jack should is some sort of reunion she's supposed to make, maybe the reunion creates Jack's "constant" to permit him to piece together his alternate existences? Hurley, who "stays" with Locke at first, is the faith part of the equation, his "job" is to help Jack help Jacob, on the other side of the timeline. As for Ben, his tumor, Jack saving him, Jacob-Ben-Walt (I honestly have no idea how the Walt power plays into this theory,)I don't fully form that connection. But I think this piece of Jack=Jacob will play out in the end. He is the star, the man destined to greatness of a magnitude which frightened the tatoo girl...
The psychic who tells Claire she must raise the baby, is part of some opposite force who believes that the events should not be interfered with, like jack does when he either convinces Claire or some other situation and takes Aaron and places him in Kate's care. Kate is uncooperative, why? Remember her first love? She only wanted love. She didn't love to be a fugitive, in fact, she thinks of herself as righteous. She doesn't want to run, she wants peace, she's grown to love Aaron, she has money, her life is as she wants it, except that she is forsaking the bigger picture.
Blah, blah, probably way off base, I'd love to know what the "smarties" (those with mensa/QP/evolved brains) can do with this theory.
Again, sorry if its ridiculous.
Hi Steve,
Looks like many Easter Eggs were exposed in the 2-29-08 episode!
Might I plant a seed as to how the Time Machine came into existence? I believe it has been passed down through the years since ancient times. The link is the Black Rock ship & it's log. In the last episode they disclosed Penny's father purchasing the log of the Black Rock. They also exposed the fact that they CAN travel through time and CAN change the future in the past (the key is a constant). Penny told Desmond she knows about the island, because her father purchased the book 8 years earlier and discovered the ancient secret.
Can't wait to read what you guy's think of this aspect of the mystery.
Miss working with you Steve!
Jane
Hi Steve,
Just catching up on some LOST strings. From our Kabbalah discussion last year May/June, I would like to point out that I mentioned "I am convinced that Locke (the first & obvious choice) and Desmond are the key to the entire show. ESPECIALLY Desmond..... That picture w/Penny haunts me...... And you can't deny the Odysseus (more mythology) reference!" Seems like we were definitely on to something. I have to continue to research, and will get back to you ASAP.
One thought about the Economist, though. I was watching "The Economist" (ep3) again, because something bothered me about the ending. When Sayid first enters the "operating room" and sits, he is asked a few questions, which he answers (we don't see Ben yet). Now, when we DO see Ben, and HE starts asking questions, it's his voice, TOTALLY different from initially!!!! From our view, there very well could have been a third party in the room!! So, who is it?!? Now, sit down.... The first voice, to me, sounded like Christian Shepard!!!!!! Yeah CS!! Remember, ALOT of people have linked him to Jacob, possibly even BEING Jacob (white tennis shoes when Hurley looks in)!!!!! And who else would want to control those who got off more than 'J'?!? And who better to be his "recruiter", than his original one....?!? Anyway, there it is....
Finally, at the closing moments of The Constant, when Daniel is furiously rummaging through his notebook, there is a page (a few b/4 the “Des” page) that has an odd display of circles and connecting lines. Upon further examination, this is the exact schemata of the Dharma stations on the island……
Hi Steve,
Interesting theory/theories. In the spirit of fleshing out the 'thought experiment' aspect, can you take your ideas and make some specific, concrete predictions about what this season will hold? I for one would really appreciate a 'test' - think of it as a fun way to either be spurred to even better ideas if the predictions turn out to be false, or as incentive to further develop your theory if they seem to fit.
Cheers!
-Seth
???WYNNTER71??????WYNNTER71???
Question for you please answer
Locke's dad that dies, is that the dad before or after he pushed Locke ou the window. If its before than thats why Locke's can walk maybe?
The buble burst? with the explosion
Would that effect having babies on the island now or keeping people on the island.
Seth, I totally appreciate the spirit of your question. I have to answer it in the context not only of my Gedanken theory, here but also my Passion Play theory of the Isis/Osiris/Horus mythology posted on this site AFTER the Gedanken theory, and I encourage you to read it here.
In some ways the second theory offers better predictive opportunities, one of which I will already take some credit for. In it, I stated that Charlie's character corresponds with the Osiris figure of mythology, who was tricked into lying in a black coffin, the lid thrown over it, and Osiris suffocated and died. So in my theory, posted on May 18, 2007 I wrote the following: "Remember being trapped in a coffin? While it is possible the writers of “Lost” will throw in a twist, it would make sense if Charlie does die alone in the Looking Glass station. He will be trapped, a door will be closed, and he will suffocate by drowning." 5 days later, on May 23, the season finale aired in which that is exactly how he died. Just as important, I predicted that we would see Charlie again anyway, and sure enough, he appeared at the beginning of this season, Christ-like, to Hurley.
Based on the combination of the two theories, I will predict the following to happen, if not this season, then by the conclusion of the series:
1) Claire and Aaron will be reunited.
2) The source of the time travel/wormhole power of the island is an ancient Egyptian artifact known as the Djed Pillar, though the show might give it a different name. It is possible that it was being transported by the Black Pearl when it shipwrecked on the island.
3) Charlie's role is not finished. He will be central/instrumental in defeating an "enemy", be that Ben or Penny's father, and enabling the reuniting of Claire and Aaron.
4) Sayid will capture Locke's father and Ben will "send him back" to the island, enabling the scene that we already know happened in which Sawyer kills him.
I'll think of more. I'm especially interested in what will happen with Desmond and Locke. Let me know what you think.
All the best,
Steve
An absolutely marvelous analysis combining the physics of quantum mechanics with the story of Lost. I particularly appreciate your observations on how the Others know so much about the survivors.
However, I do have a few observations:
1. Oceanic 815 did not crash onto the island as a simple coincidence. It was necessary because another chance occurrence did take place: Ben developed a cancer on his spine. If Ben dies, then he cannot fulfill his mission to preserve the timeline of the earth and the flight therefore encountered a storm that forced them to be at the one place that could prevent the Ben dies/World ends/Time is not what it is "supposed to be" paradox. (I admit I don't understand the overriding requirement for the Ben future but I suspect that it is something about good vs evil and the continuity of life being a sine qua non of existence.)
2. The theory about the 108 minutes, essentially a ratchet that permits the distance between the two doors to increase, should have/may have created a sense of urgency in the Others now that the ratchet tool has been destroyed. The two doors are now both moving in time together and this means that 14 years in the future they will no longer have the ability to effect change in the “today” timeline of events, and those events are almost assuredly moving toward the destruction of the planet or all life. So, Ben and the Others need to bring together their best as well as the best from the survivors to make changes now or forever lose the ability to do so. Interestingly, it also creates a problem for characters such as Locke who, if they exist somewhat simultaneously in the past and on the island, may revert as time moves, for example, Locke will find himself unable to walk when the island timeline crosses the point at which he fell out of the window in his original timeline.
3. I find the supposed paradox about a child dying before it is born to be less compelling. The grandfather paradox exists because it creates a causality wave that propagates from the past to the future. It is a major contradiction. But a childless mother going back in time and dying in child birth along with the unborn child does not seem to be an event that would create a causality wave – a fundamental contradiction of cause and effect – so I am not sure about that one. Yes, it does certainly explain why mothers and children are dying on the island but one would think that a group so engrained in thinking about and living in a dual timeline existence would understand this and not bother with trying to effect a cure.
Again, thank you for a wonderful analysis.
Wow dude, I honestly think this should be at the number one spot instead of my theory. Great work!
Nice anticipation. Any update in light of recent events?
I would like to offer some evidence that Steve's theory is is right on the mark! In my research on Isis (read S.D. Wynn's other posts), I discovered that she was a magician. It is the BEST explination I have found to explain the Smoke Monster....
This is a quote from Isis, TourEgypt,
Thus when she wished to make Ra reveal to her his greatest and most secret name, she made a venomous reptile out of dust mixed with the spittle of the god, and by uttering over it certain words of power she made it to bite Ra as he passed. When she had succeeded in obtaining from the god his most hidden name, which he only revealed because he was on the point of death, she uttered words which had the effect of driving the poison out of his limbs, and Ra recovered. Now Isis not only used the words of power, but she also had knowledge of the way in which to pronounce them so that the beings or things to which they were addressed would be compelled to listen to them and, having listened, would be obliged to fulfil her bequests.
-- Isis, TourEgypt
Still very interesting, though considering what we know now a lot of this may or may not apply anymore. Two things stood out to me. 1) While the Island's "time machine" does have two doors that appear to have a set place in space, but not time (entrance at the frozen donkey wheel and exit in Tunisia), it doesn't seem to have any set "rules" for travel--Ben traveled forward 10 months, while Locke, who pushed the wheel not very long after, went forward 3 years.
2) "There is a very important concept in time travel here, which is that you can NEVER travel back further in time than the creation of your time machine." --This is interesting because this might still hold. Obviously the Losties can travel back further than when the Dharma station was built--they went to the 1950s, as well as back to whenever the four-toed statue was whole. But who's to say how long the frozen donkey wheel has been there? If you can't travel back before the wheel was built (assuming someone realized the power of the island and built the wheel to harness it), knowing when the wheel was made--and who made it--might help answer some questions about Jacob/MIB/Richard.
wow '07...
so it could be that we see again jeremy bentham crashing his car - after visiting helen's grave with the then shot m. abbadon - into the car of cooper : O ?
Did this percolate back to the top because "Teri" posted the mustvisitindia spam?
In any case, this is a pretty interesting theory, even if some of it has been disproved at this point.
damn dude! well done. i can only hope for the answers of LOST to be this satisfactory. this would explain a lot & i think you may be onto something significant. i have thought before that the others mission was preserving a timeline but the thought/science that you have backing this is very convincing. i enjoyed this a lot. nice work.
edit: after reading the comments (for over an hour!) i just saw where you talked about the valenzetti related implications to this idea and how it may just be the opposite & that they are trying to change the timeline. good thinking. it appears that one of the fundamental elements of LOST is precisely these two elements. one group working to preserve the timeline & one group working against them to change it. the big question then becomes who is on which side? have not read the atlantis theory but i am on board with this one and will check that one out next.
@Illyria Yeah I wondered about that too. I checked out the link - probably unwise - but it didn't take me anywhere interesting... Looks like Dark has reposted it though, since at the top there's a sentence saying when this theory was originally posted - back in 2007! Which is pretty good insight IMO. Kudos to Steve, I wonder where the OP is now? It'd be cool to hear what he has to say over more recent episodes. How he sees this science applied to what we know from the show now. I bet he'd say Jacob set it all up not Ben!
@Jacob. I also thought that the Others were keepers of time and that THEY were course correction, not some mysterious force, in the early days of Lost. It definately seems to be a war over controlling the time line and my theories encorporate that idea.
What you are saying about who becomes on which side...well I think it might change from time line to time line. If one person goes back to change something in the past then another will go back and make a counter move. This would not just be one action though it could be several different things that a person would do to make changes in the time line. Like Inman's interferance in Sayid's life. He may have also been influencing Kate's life too, since her Dad was also there. Then when he returns to the future to soo what the rippled effects of his actions are. then the opposite team has a go at correcting or influencing the timeline in a different direction. As a result you may find that in one iteration of the time line Sayid is on one side then in the next he has been influenced another way. Like Sun aligning with Widmore's side. She wanted to kill Ben so badly she was prepared to help Widmore in some way we are yet to see.
One side IMO is looking for a way to prevent the end of the world, which Dharma was trying to prevent and ironically caused. The other, which is probably the good side, wants the world to end.