Comments on LOST Theories: Reciprocity 2: Why the Losties need the Island by ...

The war isn't strictly about the unrest of the dea...

2009-11-09T23:11:17.730Z

The war isn't strictly about the unrest of the dead. I meant to say the Life and Death side don't have contact with each other because, just as you and I live our lives, we don't expect ghosts to show up and talk to us. Only Jacob and MIB are aware of any other existing plane. That is what the truce barrier in the cabin is. A way for Jacob to discuss an issue with the dead if he so wishes. Or vice versa with MIB, although I believe neither has used this option in quite sometime.

Symbolically it is the perfect place for a mediator like Christian to instruct someone as crucial to the Island as Locke. They meet inside a truce circle (of ash) and the Island mediator talks to the future human mediator. Locke answered, "I'm here because I was chosen to be." And Christian says, "Thats absolutely right." This could be interpreted as MIB happy about his plan of deception working. But I believe it was the Island being pleased that he was accepting his destiny as it's saviour. Or more specifically the role it had hoped he would accept.

I get the sense that the writers saying s6 will have a s1 feel can also mean what most people thought about the show being purgatory in season 1. I could see them explaining that this is how heaven grants entrance. Not that the Losties really did die, but that they were brought to a heaven like place to be judged. If a place like heaven exists, I could imagine it having a real world "readiness" test it periodically commences. If you know you're dead or are about to die, you would probably be more likely to atone. However what if you knew you were still alive and just landed on a crazy Island? How do you act? Not to say they are dead or the Island is heaven, just more of a "run thru". Perhaps it is like the Pearl station, the test is of Jacob and MIB not necessarily the Losties.

Our Skies... I doubt you'll read this, since thes...

2009-11-09T23:02:15.178Z

Our Skies...

I doubt you'll read this, since these comments sections are difficult to have a proper discussion with it being hours or even days between responses. I'd prefer a chat room or email. If you're up for it sometime, let me know. You have some fascinating observations and I find myself reading your comments and saying to myself, "Wow I thought the same thing, but..." or "That's a good point! I agree!"

The writers were (or may have been) expositing the rules of the universe that the Lost world exists in with Miles and Hurley's dialogue about the dead. My reason for saying there is an illusion of Life and Death and how it relates to Miles has to do with character development. Miles has an ability, but it isn't fully developed IMO. I like what you said about Hurley using his ability to see dead people as a form of comfort. IMO Miles is the same way.

Miles never knew his father and was lead to believe he was dead and "could never go where he was." He felt like a freak or crazy because of his ability. In opposition of Hurley, Miles used is ability to take advantage of others. Although, I don't think never knowing his father was enough of a (or the only) motivation to deceive others with his gift. This was a way of saying Miles' ability is not unlike Hurley's in that he uses it as a form of comfort. He, like everyone else that I theorized, believes that the dead are gone. To the characters this symbolically represents their attitude that the dead aren't able to defend themselves, and don't or can't look on with disapproval in response to the acts of the living. Dead is dead, you don't get to come back from that. This could be interpreted as having a "kill someone to get rid of them" type mentality, or "I better do the right thing in life because I only get one chance at it" type mentality. The characters will go from the former to the latter over the course of the show. Perhaps not literally "kill someone to get rid of them" but more to a degree of ignorance and unaccountability of their actions.

It's what I meant about the illusion. Even someone like Miles, who can sense a presence that has been killed, doesn't have the fully developed mind set to communicate with them or acknowledge their existence in terms of recognizing that they are indeed present on the Island. He only hears/senses them, like Hurley only sees them briefly. I think each will develop their ability and it will illustrate their importance to the mission, as well as the development of their character.

Great thoughts on liminality, but you MUST believe in paradise to have it Our Skies!! Just kidding, I get what you mean about it being out of reach of the living. That's my point though; the Island has been attempting to attain the impossible with respect to attaining paradise. I don't think we'll see it before the show ends, but we'll get a sense somehow that the Losties made it there. Perhaps the ALT timeline is about a new set of different candidates to come to the Island and take part in their own test. A way of saying a new world must be saved and this time it will be a different group to do it. Perhaps each of the Losties will interact with one of these new characters and the writers will weave their stories in the six degrees of separation style of the flashbacks of the Losties. So in other words the Losties will be the victims of these new folks that will have to make amends. Like saying Kate's father Wayne was a candidate from the previous test. I don't know about that idea though because it seems out of keeping with the focus on the Losties, but it could kind of show the loop theme. Perhaps it is a perpetuating game that gets played with new players in each reality?

Our Skies... Very well said! I completely and abs...

2009-11-09T18:27:42.597Z

Our Skies...

Very well said! I completely and absolutely agree.

"I'm sure Jacob is directly or indirectly responsi...

2009-11-09T18:11:13.609Z

"I'm sure Jacob is directly or indirectly responsible for MIB's death..."

I really like this idea... partly because I really really REALLY hope that Jacob and the MIB aren't some kind of island gods, but just people like our Losties.

really.

Again I agree with a lot of your writing, and some...

2009-11-09T09:36:43.808Z

Again I agree with a lot of your writing, and some things I think might be open to a different interpretation.
I don't think the apparitions of dead people hint at them 'existing' on another level still. I think Miles spoke for the writers in Season 05 when arguing with Hurley. He wondered for example if by detonating Jughead they would cause the Incident in the first place, which I am sure is exactly what happened (if they hadn't detonated the bomb, the Island would have been destroyed completely by the pocket of energy taking over). He explained to us furthermore why the Losties are in the past, but not in THEIR own past, which is right, of course. He told us they could die. AND he told us that once someone dies, this person is gone, there are just remains of consciousness that tell him about the last minute's facts and feelings - like an emotional photogramm. But there is no person left. I think Hurley sees this people like he saw Dave - out of imagination and a need to survive emotionally. Jacob told him it was a gift, but it could also mean it was something useful he invents when his mind in in need of advice or emotional support.

Furthermore I don't think that MIB is some kind of a revengeful spirit. He and Jacob are aspects of the Island that are at war. The Island might be a little schizophrenic after all. I am wondering a lot recently WHY MIB would tell Locke to bring the Oceanic 06 back. When Richard talks to Locke he even says that the only way to SAVE THE ISLAND would be to bring them all back. So I guess MIB/Flocke knew that if they didn't travel back in time, they would never prevent the destruction of the Island. So he would be the one that is responsible in a way for the detonation of an H-bomb. He is bound to the existance of the Island.

I still don't believe there is a paradise available for human beings. The 'death side' of the Island is evoked in the Losties' minds because both Jacob and MIB are manipulating them. I don't know about the whispers, because there is no pattern that would fit to their every occurence, but very often they occur before someone is in danger. This could be someone warning them, but also being a means to unsettle the 'victims'. I am sure Shannon for example was guided into following 'Walt' by someone who wanted her to be killed by Ana Lucia - in order to see how they would react. I think it was MIB who wanted to drive the Losties into bloodshed to prove that they are bad and destructive.

This might be a reaction to a deep disappointment about human beings that simply won't achieve the state of enlightenment. I however believe that the Island as an entity as a whole is "a place where miracles happen" because it is essentially a good place. It offers a setting to become 'good', too - which means to find oneself first of all. But I don't believe it means an extreme like Nirvana.
And this fits nicely with your ideas about the boundaries on Island, which I think are especially interesting. I think the Island is a place of LIMINALITY - where both 'good' and 'bad' transcent their old meanings. Liminality is a state of mind that occurs or is created deliberately in times of important change (rites de passage) in a person or a character - but it can also mean to change from life to death. Illness can be seen as a liminal state, for example. Maybe all our Losties can be said to have arrived on the Island in a liminal state, there were somehow in between places. The Island is a liminal place that can absorb this emotional liminality and turn it into something productive. Liminality is also a concept that can be transferred to theatrical settings (as Victor Turner did) and to historical events that take place as a theatrical drama (he calls it a "social drama"). I think the Island might just offer such a setting, like a stage. And on this stage it mirrors and intensifies the characters' emotional distress - so they can learn to transcent their limits.

Jack and Kate plus 8, Locke's Disciple, Ricky, oth...

2009-11-09T06:09:59.798Z

Jack and Kate plus 8, Locke's Disciple, Ricky, others, we *REALLY* need to meet up in a chat room periodically to hash all this stuff out in real time.
I'm going absolutely NUTS waiting for s6! And I guess I'm curbing the urge a little to post here.. and wait and refresh and wait and refresh these posts hoping for interaction.
Who's with me? We can join the spoilerslost chatrooms like #lostspoilers. I would really enjoy just hammering all this stuff out there with you guys.
Let me know please. I figure I'm not allowed to give out my email address here in these posts so I'll just keep coming back here to see if you guys are game.

Final Draft? What you don't shoot from the hip? ...

2009-11-09T04:13:53.518Z

Final Draft?

What you don't shoot from the hip?

Come on all the best gunslingers shoot from the hip!!!

I usually just start typing up my fresh thoughts then do a spell check and bam!!! Theory.

@Elegiamore You're right Claire didn't kill anyone...

2009-11-09T02:47:49.498Z

@Elegiamore
You're right Claire didn't kill anyone, my mistake I forgot to edit her out of the final draft.

@Patrick T.
It's not 100% accurate of course, no theory of Lost will be. If you want to discuss or debate Lost I'm up for it. I took a stab at answering some questions, so sue me.

I'm curious to know what's ridiculous about it.

this entire thing just reeks of pretentiousness an...

2009-11-09T01:56:07.678Z

this entire thing just reeks of pretentiousness and ridiculousness

Help me out here - whom did Claire kill or cause t...

2009-11-09T01:28:21.377Z

Help me out here - whom did Claire kill or cause to die? Her car wreck with her mom turned out OK (if indeed the woman we are told is Carole Littleton is actually her, recovered).

However, we do know that Anna Lucia killed, Eko caused his brother's death, Des killed Kelvin, Richard killed en masse...who am I forgetting?

On the other hand, most modern dramas have an illogical amount of killings going on; part of our currently violent society.

As stated above, very thoughtful and interesting theory/summation. There is no doubt that symbolism is one of the foundations of this show, unlike most other serial dramas. This brings LOST closer to the world's most accomplished literature, which elevates the show beyond 99% of most TV.

Thanks Keith H and J&K. I knew this half would get...

2009-11-09T00:23:43.453Z

Thanks Keith H and J&K. I knew this half would get lower ratings and expected comments saying it was unoriginal or boring. It's why I explained that on paper things look duller or seem simpler than on screen. If 7 years ago you read an idea for the show from JJ Abrams that said "these people land on an Island and there is a monster of black smoke and they see ghosts" that might not sound as interesting as what its become with all the other elements they added. Seeing it all on screen and then the way the writers tie together each storyline and payoff things is what makes Lost so intriguing.

I don't mind if people don't agree with it. I didn't mean zombies live on the Island and want revenge like Night of the Living Dead. I meant that there exists a "dimension" where the dead on the Island live the same as the way the living people do. The Island takes their image and it forms the apparition to speak to one of the living. It can't speak to them directly, it has no body. So it's not really that dead person, it's the Island manifesting the image of the dead from the other side. Life and Death sides might sound boring, or unoriginal, but then how many other times have you seen time travel, ghosts, CGI monsters or a hidden, secret-place where magic happens? Maybe not all together but it has been in a lot of other sci-fi stories. Lost is unique in the way they execute the story.

I could've went into more detail about MIB's war. I don't mean to say all he wants is vengeance, its much more complicated then that. Ask yourself, why would he need Jacob dead? Does the Island explode once he does? He said things will change once he's gone. To me that means no more doing what Jacob has done, and what has Jacob done? Bring people to the Island, heal Locke from the fall (speculative), help others. Jacob is the healing and positive side of the Island. With him gone someone will need to take his place, hence the title of the s6 poster "Who is the leader?"

What do all the Losties have in common prior to coming to the Island that could be related to Jacob? One thing is they've all been responsible directly or indirectly for someone's death. The Island has tested each Lostie and now that will kick into overdrive since Jacob is dead. MIB can use all his powers of shape-shifting and manipulation. He will press at their most vulnerable spots, namely the deaths they have caused and their self esteems. They will have to sacrifice and as Abbadon said "find out what their made of"

@Locke's disciple Good work. I disagree about the...

2009-11-08T23:41:53.996Z

@Locke's disciple

Good work. I disagree about the dead wanting retribution and that's all the war is about, but I do like some of the other speculations. I love the idea that the Island is an emotional contagion that feels what it's people feel. That could be why apparitions appear. I gave you 5 stars because of what you said about judging it based on creativity and logic and not so much if I agree with everything.

Excellent work. This is really more fan fiction th...

2009-11-08T23:32:09.778Z

Excellent work. This is really more fan fiction that it is theory, but I like it. Like you said it's only the symbolic analysis, not a what if this what if that type theory. Good work, both of them are good reads. I'm surprised you got such low ratings, but most people want fanciful stuff about scientific theory not symbolic analysis. Screw'em.

There's a lot of things you mentioned that I missed while watching the show. A good outline, like the first one. You're right people should rate theories based on logic and creativity because the truth is no one knows what'll happen. If I wrote a theory saying Sawyer time traveled and is Locke's real dad that would suck, but if I wrote something more creative and logical even if wrong hopefully people would understand it and appreciate the effort.

I think the problem is most people will not pick up on how you tied all the symbolic moments together. I myself didn't even realize that every Lostie killed, or caused someone to be killed in their past. I'm sure the war will be more complex than just a zombie movie, but I agree somehow MIB wants Jacob dead so he's out of the way. I would only point out that for some reason he has the power to shape-shift so I don't know if I'd classify him as dead. Maybe undead like Christian would be a better term. Good work all in all.