Hi all,
I've been reading a bunch of theories since The Incident aired, done the whole rewatch thing, etc. At first, I figured, like many - Locke's toast. But a few things don't add up.
Firstly, from a narrative point of view, something felt wrong. If Locke was to be a pathetic red herring, it would have been flagged heavier. Secondly, how are there 2 physical Lockes on the island?
Couple this with the did they/didn't they reboot question, as well as what Damon and Carlton have said about no grandfather paradoxes, WHH, etc, and I've come up with a theory. But as Doc Brown says, you've gotta think fourth dimensionally, not in the order that we've been shown things.
Left-field quote from Chuck Palahniuk's Rant because it summarises my starting concept nicely:
"One theory of time travel resolves the Grandfather Paradox by speculating that, at the moment one changes history, that change splinters the single flow of reality into parallel branches. For example, after you've killed your ancestor, reality would fork into two parallel paths: one reality in which you continued to be born and your ancestor did not die, and one branch in which your ancestor died and you would never be conceived. Each revision one made in the past, the subsequent new reality it created, theorists refer to as a 'bifurcation.'"
Think about the duplicated bunnies and the Orchid experiment. Casimir effect. Exotic matter can do freaky things when exposed to metal objects and big bombs! But I digress...
I believe Lost is setting up something really cool for sci-fi fans. How can you side-step the Grandfather Paradox and the self fulfilling prophecy of WHH? You splinter time and have it play out simultaneously. (BUT NOT IN THE WAY THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED)
So, stepping it through linearly: Locke dies. Jack et al get on the Ajira flight. At the moment Jack and the 77ers flash out, a new Lost present-day reality has been created - BECAUSE they went to 1977. In causing the Incident and creating an alternate timeline, a duplicate of Locke is now made to exist, because he simultaneousy already dies (thus bringing Jack et al onto the plane so they can change history) and must live (because the changes to the timeline cancel out the 815 crash). We've ALREADY been watching a new, altered timeline in all story post-Ajira.
Locke isn't alive because of MiB or Smokie or anything funny like bringing his body to the island. That's why him being able to exist physically as both what people are calling Flocke as well as his corpse is possible. There has never been a case of Smokie imitating someone who is above ground)
(As an aside, re the whole "Loophole" conversation, I think that Locke has always had inside info from very early in the series - "This wasn't meant to happen" etc. It's like he was possessed by MiB via Smokie or something. Think Raistlin/Fistandantilus in Dragonlance for those who have read it.)
Anyway, so - we have 2 realities. I think the '77 Losties now leap back to the present (cue "vvvwooomp" white blast noise), and they land in LAX, etc. But those key players have a severe case of Desmond-itis due to their proximity to the blast. What happens for the first part of the season is them all fighting course-correction. They have flashes of memories from their other timeline. People like Charlie, etc. may temporarily be alive, but they start dying one by one - getting run over by trucks, etc. WHH. You can't mess with fate.
Locke IS probably still destined to die. As is Jack. (If the series doesn't close with his eyes closing forever, I'll eat my hat!) I'm betting it is just far more likely that it will happen in a more meaningful and poetic way than what we've seen so far. It would make for a very suspenseful S6, knowing certain people have to make a difference to the "right" side of the coming war before they go.
thoughts? Yojimbo
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Splintered Ajira Time, 2 John Lockes & Course Correction by Yojimbo
(Comments: 12)
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12 Comments:
Ok..everyone here knows I am the biggest supporter of Locke is not MiB.
But can you be more specific?
I am going in circles. Even if you are right...and Locke we are seeing is Alt Locke explain to me when he became?
So lets go linear. He is off the island. He is Jeremy Bentham now. He tries to talked the ass*oles into coming back to the island..to help their friends Juliet, Sawyer and Jin who will die..he fails (only because he had to convince Jack, Kate and Sayid for god sake. Even Des who wasn't close at all with these people did everything possible and jeopardize his family in order to help them..but not Jack..not Kate..rrrroooaaarrrr)..he is devastated and tries to kill himself but lucky him, Ben comes storming into his room, plays nice just to get desired info on how to get back and he kills him out of selfish reasons..his body is put in a coffin and he is shipped of to the island. 316 crashes..
He is alive- Obi van style..
At the same time Jack became a leader out of guilt and detonates (with a little help of Juliet) the bomb. Time splits. Right?
So in what moment John became two? He was found few hours after the crash, right? After Ben was hit by Sun (applause)..there is a gap in time if you are implying that he became two after the bomb went boom.
ups not leader..what I meant to say..Jack becomes a believer out of guilt. :)
Hi Monika,
I think he became 2 at the moment the '77 Losties disappeared from Ajira 316. If tjis theory is correct, because the flow of changes in the timeline, would have affected the remaining Ajira people immediately.
So, from a time-frame perspective, this would mean the alt-Losties are already out, about and doing their thing while Locke 2.0, Ben, Sun, Frank and so on are having their S5 2007 adventures.
I just don't understand why people can't accept that Dark guy is using Locke's body? It's already been confirmed in the podcast before the finale aired. They said, "in the finale, you'll see who has been using dead bodies for personal gain." That right there proves it!
Errclaw:
1. You assume everyone has heard all the podcasts.
2. I just listened to that podcast. No such mention of using bodies.
3. I'm plenty open minded to say it's possible Locke's possessed or whatever. But his body isn't being used at the moment, is it?
Mon listen up lol I am a big fan of Locke is not MIB however the evidence keeps pointing to it. ESP the convo between Jacob and the MIB in the opening scene of the incident and the identical closing scene of the incident with Locke and Jacob and how now they know eachother. Pay in mind the producers could completely turn it around and make a whole new branch of stories from it, something like Locke was in the ancient times and now knows him, something crazy.
Also too I kind of sort of agree with Yojimbo about the ALT Locke, think back in "Because You Left" when they were skipping through time and Locke was looking at the light of the hatch knowing he was right there, what if he went up to himself and said something, obviously that never happeneded but if it did then he could of created a parrallel universe where he did go up to himself blah blah. Its such a hard thing to talk about, Im reading the book FlashForward right now and it just gets complicated and complicated, theory after theory and nothing still adds up lol.
JOYIMBO I don't think the time line splintered because the Losties went to the past or because Jack tried to detonate the bomb. I think that there have been at least one splinter of the timeline caused by bringing the Losties to the island in the first place. Just like there was one when Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island.
I'm not sure what you mean by "BUT NOT IN THE WAY THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED"? Maybe I've been away from this site for too long...
Cass, I have had those exact same thoughts when working out a time chart. I have the first split (from the losties perspective) at the moment of the plane crash. It is at this point when their present/future/past is drastically altered from what it would have been. However, the events setting this all up have been occuring since even before the incident (all the way back to 1954), makes me wonder how far the effects of the ALT should go... But it's around that time that I get frustrated and quit.
But I agree that the Ajira folks would have felt the effects immediately. Since that catalyst (flash) would inevitably change that future, then it would follow that they would feel it instantaneously, just as the effects of WHH have been felt instantaneously up until now. Then it would make sense that the 77 losties end up back at the point where the changes take effect (815), but I almost feel like the circumstances/manipulation/nudges that got them on the plane in the first place should be affected too...
But again I digress. Interesting thoughts. I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind wrapped around the 2 Locke's idea, but these are good thoughts.
Cass, I'd argue that any effects to the timeline that you note wouldn't need to be represented in the show, as it's just considered reality for all of the protagonists. In this case, for the first time we have a split in the group so we can observe the changes. They wouldn't complicate things in this way unless there was a good reason.
"NOT IN THE WAY..." - just in comparison to people interpreting Fox's comments about the start of S6, etc. that I can't discuss here.
B3 - Thanks. I think the Losties could end up in the post-Ajira timefame, intercutting course-correction stuff.
Oh nevermind, Cass, you were saying that you DON'T think that the Jughead caused another ALT. I guess that's where we disagree somewhat, but I've also warmed up to that idea that the incident is what always happened (in that ALT anyway).
I'm kinda in between those ideas, but I'm in agreement with you (for now anyway) that the first ALT should have been when their plane crashed (or to me, possibly even well before that).
Whatever the podcast said I don't buy it. Because as more as you point out the harder I will fight ;)
MiB is not using Lockes body. Lockes body is lying on the beach. How complicated is that? One Locke walking around. One Locke lying on the ground dead.
1+1=2
2 Lockes. And none is using dead body. So how come this one time MiB is not using his body but was using bodies all along for his personal gain(according to podcast)
I dont believe the podcasts, what the producers apparently tell people and it leaks, it is all bull. Im with Monika on this, Locke on the beach Locke in the statue. Sounds good to me lol.